Anything about JUDAISM
Anything about JUDAISM
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Tortured_Soul Posted - 27 March 2007 21:56
[This is a reply to the post that was just removed. Even without the removed post, I still think this post of mine is germane and makes some necessary clarifications- TS]

<<if theres anything israeli about their art than there is nothing religious about it.>>

Well, that depends on what you mean by “Israeli”. If you mean Zionist or reflective of secular Israeli culture, then, yes, not only is “there nothing religious about it” but – at least in many, if not most, cases– it can easily be called “trash”[1].

I certainly appreciate the fact that there is nothing truly Jewish about anything in secular Israeli culture and that there are many people– even in frum circles– who do not appreciate this.

But “Israeli” is often used simply to refer to Eretz Yisroel or its people, which includes many frum – and even righteous– people.

What about a frum person who paints the holy sites of Eretz Yisroel or scenery that evokes appreciation for the wonders of the C-reator?

There are a number of things distinctly “Yerushalmi” that pre-date and have nothing to do with Zionism [2], such as the accent, dialect and minhagim. There likely are also certain styles of music, singing and art in this category. What about all of the beautiful olive-wood crafts with “religious”[3] themes found in the gift shops throughout Meah Shearim?

(Please Note, however, that I never meant to imply that any of the examples I cited in my _original_ post above were in this category or that there was anything “holy” about them. I merely took issue with the implication that they would be categorized as “trash”– purely from a _cultural_ and _artistic_ perspective.)

This is probably true for other regions as well that have communities that pre-date Zionism.

I realize that you almost certainly did not mean to include any of these examples but I did not feel this was clear enough from your post and hence I felt the need to post as I did. You shouldn’t take it personally– I have no idea who you are (or who just about anyone else is here, for that matter) and I respond tothe _content_ of a post and not the _personality_ who is the poster. (Which is what this forum is all about and one of the key reasons why anonymity is so essential here).

Finally, I certainly do not dispute the point you made about music– one that has been made in numerous posts in the ‘Jewish Music’ section. As the moderator just noted, further discussion on that topic should be directed _there_. (But before submitting a question, one should first look through the posts and/or use the search function try to see whether it has already been answered there)

[1] Though doing so is not always advisable; I mean in a case where you are only going to offend and not accomplish anything constructive or positive, what would be the point? It certainly is no way to be mikareiv “Chilonim” by going around telling them how trashy their culture is.

[2] Not only that but the talmidim of the Vilna Gaon who comprised the original Old Yishuv in Yerushalayim were known as ‘Perushim’ and were (and are) among the most vehemently and zealously anti-Zionist. Rav Amram Blau, ZT’L, the founder of Neturei Karta, was part of this community.

[3] I put “religious” in quotes because Judaism is not really ‘religion’ but rather a lifestyle based on the very essence of one’s being.

MODERATOR Posted - 20 July 2007 0:53
minhashamayim --

the status of apikores or rasha etc is a halachic one, not a social one. and if poskim and gedolim consider someone in those catagories, it is a psak halacha, and based on halachic methodology. please see the sources and reasoning of rav kooks critics and you will see that this is a halachic issue regarding the status of somone whose hashkafos are as anti-torah as his was. it is nothing more and nothign to take personally.

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