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|depressedAngel||Posted - 01 June 2007 9:14
cheers its nice but i still dont think it makes sense because the horse is still only significant because of its value to the driver, theres no significance in it of itself. is this how it is with men and women?
|cheers!||Posted - 01 June 2007 13:55
k, so first of all, thanks for reading it. i wasn't sure if u would cuz it's kinda long winded...
but to answer ur question--OF COURCE NOT!!!! here in the mashal, the point is abt s'char in that particular area. that's why it's ok to use the horse as the mashal, which as u so correctly pointed out, has no other intrinsic value on its own, while that angle of the mashal certainly does NOT carry over.
DA--women don't have a mitzva to get married. it'a a man's responsibility and the only reason we have this mitzva is to fill this chiyuv. but let's say for a minute there's a woman who for whatever reason can't or doesn't get married... or what abt us? we're not married--does that make us nothings?! of course not. we all have our own unique responsiblities and chiyuvim to fill at various points in our lives. i always think abt how cool yiddeshkeit is, cuz it's not like we're second class citizens at all, while in secular society, i can totally understand why ppl get all bent outa shape over feminism issues...
we thank Hashem that He made us just the way we are. (she'asani kirtzono") we're perfect and we fill an awesome role, both on an individual level and on a klal level.
y'know DA. i just had an interesting thought. maybe guys should complain that it's not fair that they have a chiyuv for marriage and having children that they have to rely on others for. they could get all annoyed and say--what?! don't i have my own value...why can't i do this mitzva on my own?!?
so u gonna say he has a valid complaint? that he has no intrinsic value w/o a woman?! of course not. as i said before, we each have our own unique roles. some responsiblities we can do on our own and others we can't complete without others. that does NOT take away from our individual worth in the least. period.
does that answer ur question?
|write||Posted - 01 June 2007 14:24
thanks cheers for saying that i've always said that to my friends when this came up.
For some reason the girls are the only ones to complain. (I belive men have more of a reason to complain then we do. bitul zmen, so many obligations, have to laern, have to support...............)
|MODERATOR||Posted - 01 June 2007 17:09
bas levi -
bakovodik to me, yes, but not to the bais yaakov girls who she insulted. if you insult soomeon in a bakovodike manner its still wrong.
the manager of a baseball team is not "second class". his role is to help the team win. if they win, he wins, if they lose, he loses. he facilitates and makes them win, but thyre the players. nobody would say joe torre has a second class role.
so too the woman is there to help the man win, by his becomign a talmid chacham. if he wons, she wins. she facilitates hi swinning, but hes the player.
|Bas-Levi||Posted - 02 June 2007 21:11
Okay R' Mod...thank you for explaining.
|cheers!||Posted - 03 June 2007 1:24
MODERATOR: not that u need my haskama or anything--but ur mashal was awesome. thanks! :)
|depressedAngel||Posted - 03 June 2007 14:27
yeah but mod theres no need for the manadger aside from helping the player so in essence youre realy saying that women dont have any intrinsic value that their only importance is to help men cuz otherwiwse whats the point of the manadger?
|cheers!||Posted - 03 June 2007 15:01
DA: and the players can't play w/o a mananer, so is there no intrinsic value to them w/o the manager?!?!
no and no.
|taon||Posted - 03 June 2007 17:58
it's a moshol. the details dont matter, just the idea.
|depressedAngel||Posted - 03 June 2007 22:48
ok i just dont like when people say moshols and then it doesnt really fit
|MODERATOR||Posted - 04 June 2007 3:51
First of all, no player has any "intrinsic value" except to the extent that the rest of the team exists. Everyone plays their role. The pitcher only has value because the rest of the team is there. We all have a role in hashem's plan.
Beside that, your question about women's intrinsic value is not on the moshol I gave but on the posuk -- the torha says that woman was created as an ezer knegdo -- if not for the role of ezer knegdo, she wouldnt have been created at all.
But: This does not mean necessarily that depressedangel would not have been created if not for the role of ezer knegdo. What it means is, hashem would have made you a man. We all would have been men. But Hashem saw in your neshoma that your best role - not the only possible one, but the best one for you - was to be an ezer kenegdo, and so he made you a woman. Your femmininity is NOT "you". You are not intrinsically "male" or "female". You are, intrinsically, "human being". Your femininity is an incidental attribute, same as your age, your hair color, your financial status and your yichus. When hashem created you, He decides what tools to give you on this world to best fulfill your destiny. Some poeple he says are better suited to be a zevulun, some better suited to be a yissachar. This is true even though zevuluns role is to support yissachar. So too some people are best suited ot be men, and some are better suited to be women. Just as some are better suited to be rich and some not so rich, some very smart, some very strong, some born in our times and some born in ancient times etc.
Hashem makes differnt people with different personalities and circumstances based on whats best for that perosn. People with a sense of justice are good for being dayanim; peple with a bloodlust are good for bing shochtim; etc ---
Your femininity is a trait, like a personality type, a physical type, etc. Hashem gave your femininity to you as an attribute; it is not "you." You are a person who is famale, the same way a rich person is a person who is rich, and the same way a smart person is a person who is smart. These are circumstances and tools Hashem gave people in order ot fulfill their role best in this world.
Your question incorrectly assumes that the only reaosn you were created is to have a supporting role. besides that thers nothign second class about that as described above, it is an incorrect statement. Its not that the only reason Hashme created you was to have a supporting role. Rather, you would have been created anyway, but your femininity, like a wealthy man's money, like a wise person's brains, were given to you because Hashek knoew you would be able to accomplish your potential best in this world by receiving that tool to use it for the sake of Kovod Shamayim.
|neshama||Posted - 04 June 2007 8:45
Based on what Mod said, men and women were created with 2 separate tracks.
Internal track and External track.
The woman, who was created with the 'tzelah' of Adam, she was created from his rib, which is something internal and hidden, has a role to fill which is based on the internal track.
The male was created from the dirt which is 'nigleh l'ayin'- the most exposed thing on earth, visible from anywhere... therefore, his track is an external one.
Within the qualities of an external track, comes being a leader. The man tecnically is s'ppossed to be the 'head' of the family.
Within the qualities of an internal track comes being a director. The woman tecnically is s'ppossed to be the one moving the head... and in biological terms we'd call that... the 'neck'.
What's the function of the neck? It moves the head in any direction it wants to go. Now- here's the twist.
The head doesnt even realize that it's being moved by the neck! It thinks it's doing it all by itself!
That, my friends is the job of a woman.
|MODERATOR||Posted - 04 June 2007 10:02
First there was your post about the Gehinnom shel sheleg, now this. You definitely are getting your info from some not-so-commonly-used-by-the-typical-ashkenazi-Bais-Yaakov-woman sources, all of the same genre. Im curious...
|MODERATOR||Posted - 04 June 2007 10:06
Just for the record, the neck is moving the head, but the brain, in the head, is what instructs the neck to do that and tells it how.
|cheers!||Posted - 04 June 2007 13:01
MOD: and w/o a neck, the brain could send 1000 messages that would not be carried out...
i think we can all just agree that we all need e/o and while each individual person has their own value, we still do need e/o to achieve our fullest potential. it's not a competition who is greater...
"borei nefashos rabos v'chesronom" we thank Hashem for creating us w/ chesronos so that we can help e/o...
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