but to answer ur question--OF COURCE NOT!!!! here in the mashal, the point is abt s'char in that particular area. that's why it's ok to use the horse as the mashal, which as u so correctly pointed out, has no other intrinsic value on its own, while that angle of the mashal certainly does NOT carry over.

DA--women don't have a mitzva to get married. it'a a man's responsibility and the only reason we have this mitzva is to fill this chiyuv. but let's say for a minute there's a woman who for whatever reason can't or doesn't get married... or what abt us? we're not married--does that make us nothings?! of course not. we all have our own unique responsiblities and chiyuvim to fill at various points in our lives. i always think abt how cool yiddeshkeit is, cuz it's not like we're second class citizens at all, while in secular society, i can totally understand why ppl get all bent outa shape over feminism issues...

we thank Hashem that He made us just the way we are. (she'asani kirtzono") we're perfect and we fill an awesome role, both on an individual level and on a klal level.

y'know DA. i just had an interesting thought. maybe guys should complain that it's not fair that they have a chiyuv for marriage and having children that they have to rely on others for. they could get all annoyed and say--what?! don't i have my own value...why can't i do this mitzva on my own?!?

so u gonna say he has a valid complaint? that he has no intrinsic value w/o a woman?! of course not. as i said before, we each have our own unique roles. some responsiblities we can do on our own and others we can't complete without others. that does NOT take away from our individual worth in the least. period.

bakovodik to me, yes, but not to the bais yaakov girls who she insulted. if you insult soomeon in a bakovodike manner its still wrong.

all others,

the manager of a baseball team is not "second class". his role is to help the team win. if they win, he wins, if they lose, he loses. he facilitates and makes them win, but thyre the players. nobody would say joe torre has a second class role.

so too the woman is there to help the man win, by his becomign a talmid chacham. if he wons, she wins. she facilitates hi swinning, but hes the player.

First of all, no player has any "intrinsic value" except to the extent that the rest of the team exists. Everyone plays their role. The pitcher only has value because the rest of the team is there. We all have a role in hashem's plan.

Beside that, your question about women's intrinsic value is not on the moshol I gave but on the posuk -- the torha says that woman was created as an ezer knegdo -- if not for the role of ezer knegdo, she wouldnt have been created at all.

But: This does not mean necessarily that depressedangel would not have been created if not for the role of ezer knegdo. What it means is, hashem would have made you a man. We all would have been men. But Hashem saw in your neshoma that your best role - not the only possible one, but the best one for you - was to be an ezer kenegdo, and so he made you a woman. Your femmininity is NOT "you". You are not intrinsically "male" or "female". You are, intrinsically, "human being". Your femininity is an incidental attribute, same as your age, your hair color, your financial status and your yichus. When hashem created you, He decides what tools to give you on this world to best fulfill your destiny. Some poeple he says are better suited to be a zevulun, some better suited to be a yissachar. This is true even though zevuluns role is to support yissachar. So too some people are best suited ot be men, and some are better suited to be women. Just as some are better suited to be rich and some not so rich, some very smart, some very strong, some born in our times and some born in ancient times etc.

Hashem makes differnt people with different personalities and circumstances based on whats best for that perosn. People with a sense of justice are good for being dayanim; peple with a bloodlust are good for bing shochtim; etc ---

Your femininity is a trait, like a personality type, a physical type, etc. Hashem gave your femininity to you as an attribute; it is not "you." You are a person who is famale, the same way a rich person is a person who is rich, and the same way a smart person is a person who is smart. These are circumstances and tools Hashem gave people in order ot fulfill their role best in this world.

Just for the record, the neck is moving the head, but the brain, in the head, is what instructs the neck to do that and tells it how.

i think we can all just agree that we all need e/o and while each individual person has their own value, we still do need e/o to achieve our fullest potential. it's not a competition who is greater...