Anything about JUDAISM
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MODERATOR Posted - 17 October 2006 22:21
Sometimes, the seforim will bring down Chazals that are nowhere to be found in our collection of Chazals.

Sometimes, a sefer will bring something in the name of the Zohar, and i's not found in our ZOhar - such as the famous quote "man denafach midilei kanafach", which is brought in some chasidishe seforim in the name of the Zohar, even though it's nowhere in our Zohar (it ism however, found in the sefer hakanah, of Rav Nechunia ben Hakanah).

Other times, the Rambvam will bring somethgin that has no source anywhere except the Zohar, even though it is pretty clear that the Rambam didnt have the Zohar. This is either because the Rambam figured out these facts on his own, without the Zohar, since he was, after all ,the Rambam, or he must have had Medrashim that we no longer have.

Some unscrupulous pontificators even used to make up Chazals and then create complex explanations to "interpret" them - see Maharsha (Mahdura basra) Shabbos 88b.

However, when a reliable sefer openly quotes a Medrash or a Chazal, we can be sure they exist. Problem is, sometimes CHazals they quote just arent anywhere to be found. Examples:

The Maharsha himself (Chulin 91 and Bava Basra 15) quotes a statemnt that Talmidei Chachamim are careful on even less than a perutah. This is not to be found in our chazals.

The HaKosev in the AIn Yaakov (and if memory servesm part of this is also quoted by the Daas Zekeinim al HaTorah) quotes a Chazal in the introduction to AIn Yaakov: Ben ZOma says, we find a posuk that includes more, i.e. shema yisroel; ben nanos says, we find a posuk that contians even more - veahavta lereacha komocha; shimon ben pazi says, theres a posuk that contains even more ..." This is not to be found in our chazals.

The Panim Yafos in chukas quotes a Chazal that says there will not be a generation like that of Dovid and Shlomo until Moshiach comes (this is quoted in the name of Kabalah sefroim, but seemingly not found in chazal).

The Ohev Yisroel in Vayeshev quotes a Gemora in Bava Basra 75b - asidin tzadikim sheyamru lifneihem kodesh ... and the gemora asks how is Hashem referred to l'asid lavo, and it answers, Hashem is call Kodosh forever. This is not to be found in our Gemora.

When this happens, it means that the seforim had chazals that we no logner have, or perhpas a MEsorah about it, or perhaps a differtnt girsa in the Gemora.

satinsword13 Posted - 12 April 2007 14:28
is Ein Davar Haomed Mipnei Haratzon one of those chazals? or is it a misrepresentation of "B'derech sheadam rorzeh lelech bah molichin oso" or "habo l'taher."?
cheers! Posted - 20 April 2007 1:30
hey satinsword13! i'm not sure if it's a real "chazal" or not, but i learned a really nice explanation to it. this is it:

when you think about it, the truth is, how can one say that nothing stands in the way of ratzon? what if i want to only eat kosher food and someone shoves something treif in my mouth? also, what if i want to give a lot of money to tzedaka, but i don't have the money to give?! what if a guy wants to learn torah all day and night but isn't smart enough?...whatever. you get the point. there most definitely ARE stuff that stand in the way of our ratzon!! so here's the the explanation my teacher said. after we die, Hashem's not gonna ask me "why didn't you give the money to tzedaka" or "why didn't you learn more torah?" cuz HE sees that i had the ratzon. the problem is gonna be if i didn't have the ratzon!!!

kinda like the story of R' Zusha (i think) who said n/o's gonna ask why i wasn't Moshe R' they're gonna ask why i wasn't R' Zusha??!! we have to strive to be all we can be and THAT'S what we'll be called to task for. not what we didn't do...but what we didn't WANT to do!!!

luvme Posted - 20 April 2007 1:30
don't know if it's real or not...wanna hear something cool though? there was a story about 2 rabbis walking down the street and came to the topic of "ain davar..." and one of them asked the other for its sourse. one rabbi said "well, let's think...it's not in bavli... no, not in yerushalmi either..."

so is it "real"? i'm not sure, but it's a pretty awesome story! no?
MODERATOR Posted - 02 December 2007 23:28
Sorry satinsword - I didnt see your post here until now!

The differnce between ain lecha davar haomed bifnei haratzon and the above quotes, is that the ones I brought are quoted in the name of Chazal by Gedolei Achronim. As opposed to ain lecha davarm which, although is mentioned, as far as I know, nobody ever said it in the name of Chazal.

So it's a saying but thats it. Nobody claimed otherwise.

That having been said, I took a look in a sefer called Michlol Hamaamarim Vehapisgamim, which is kind of a dictionary of quotes from Torh sources, and under ain lecha davar haomed bifnei haratzon it says that it is a takeoff on the Zohar (2:162b) that says (in aramaic) "Everything in the world depends on on nothing but ratzon". Pretty close.

pop4lol Posted - 31 December 2007 19:32
Moderator- This forum is meant to discuss messorah, I therefore have a question. Is it not a contradiction to massoret hatora if we can't find reliable sources to divrei gedolim. I hope you understand the question.
MODERATOR Posted - 01 January 2008 4:20
pop -- i dont really understand the q. Please give me an example of whst youre saying
Matisyohu28 Posted - 14 April 2008 21:44
pop, not at all - it's like the chasurei mecsra in gemora, as Rav Gifter zt'l said, the purpose of these things is to test our emunas chachomim, because after all we know tanaim didnt "forget" to put things in the mishnah the way you or I forget - they did it on purpose, same thing here, just a different context..

Mussar teaches you how to live. But learning bava kama is living! - Rav Avigdor Miller ZT'L

torahtemima Posted - 17 April 2008 15:53
popularly quoted in BY: the eyes are the window to the soul.

hachitzonius meorers es hapnimius

pop4lol Posted - 30 April 2008 18:26
Matisyohu,I don't understand what you are saying.
MODERATOR Posted - 01 May 2008 20:27
pop4,

I dont understand what you are saying. (I mean the firts time.) Please xplain.

Matisyohu28 Posted - 04 May 2008 18:14
pop - no wonder you didnt understand my answer, i wrote it because i misunderstood your question..sorry

Mussar teaches you how to live. But learning bava kama is living! - Rav Avigdor Miller ZT'L

pop4lol Posted - 06 May 2008 17:24
I am going to think about how to rephrase my question.

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