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|hmw||Posted - 13 October 2009 15:39
so i dont get it cuz yeah i believe that god is real and the torah is true but then i see all the suffering and it doesnt make sense. i heard all the stuff about about how it all makes sense in the end and if someones suffering in this world then hell get rewarded in the next..... but if god is really so great and the kindest and the most compassionate then why would He create suffering altogether? theres so much pain in this world, so many sad horrible things. if HE was really so kind He never should have created this world if it would cause people to suffer.ive pretty much stopped davening but i keep the mitzvos cuz i believe torahs true and dont want to get punished, but its not fair that im forced into this.
|taon||Posted - 01 November 2009 17:48
For a start see:
|yeshiva boy||Posted - 01 November 2009 17:48
you feel that your forced into a situation that ask's of to to comply while you have wanting to do it, and if their would be no suffering,,, you would be happy to seve such a g"d,
and you feel that davening is a plus so you don't do that but mitsvos that you'll get punished you adhere to.
if you believe in g"d then yes so there is someone who created us he could be cruel brutal,,,
but chazal tell us otherwise that on the contrary h'ss loving compassionate,
you have problems understanding it cause you see differnt in real life
you should know that if you'll be able to understand the ways of g"d in a way that would be an oxymoron cause if a 2 year old would understand Einstein theory on realitivty that would mean that einstein is not who we thin he is
moshe rabeinu ask that he should undersatnd the ways of g"d a wish that wasn't fully granted
and yes read derech hashem and mesilas yesharim from r'moshe chaim luzzato the ramchal who explains creally that this world is not the end its just the means so i think having that in mind its not hard to understand that the suffering is in this world
|jewishgirl1||Posted - 01 November 2009 17:48
This is really a very good question that Jews throughout history have had. There are two concepts that can help you understand what all this suffering is about.
1) Hashem is hiding and doesn't tell us His who He is or what His plans are. We have to constantly try to find Him, even when things seem bad and Hashem seems absent.
|Matisyohu28||Posted - 01 November 2009 17:48
you're assuming suffering = ultimate-evil-that is-worse-than-anything-else. There's a few problems with this: good and bad are relative; ask a sadist(person who likes to cause pain), is suffering bad? he'll say it's the best thing in the world. Or, you can ask people who cut themselves - they also, in some way, feel a positive way about suffering - this is because our feelings do not define good and bad, right and wrong, etc.., only G-d does.
Suffering is a part of G-d's plan. If not for suffering, there would be little motivation in the base sense - higher motives are great and laudable, but be honest; davening when you're sick is different than when everything's peachy, and davening for parnosa when you have none is on an entitrely different level than when you're wealthy.
Bad, accordign to the torah, is causing YOU(= your neshoma) to suffer by being far from g-d or being contaminated by tumah or klipos. This is the result of doing any avera - even a small one. This is bad, in itself. Suffering only seems bad because I'm a human, fleshy being made of soft material that feels pain - if I were just my neshoma, without my body, I would look at the body's pain as nothing compared to the terrible, beyond-words suffering that is a neshoma cut off from G-d or whose connection to Hashem is weakened.
Things are not always as they register in your brain - we see things, but we don't really see them. Scientists are just beginning to understand this - pictures that we 'see' in front of our eyes, are not real vision, but rather images the BRAIN creates based on input from light sources and the like - but you don't see things the way we think we do. Your impulses are not always right - the moderator's moshol(used very often, which helped me a lot to understand this concept better) is that when a person is on a highway, and the wheels skid on oil or the like, the instincts say to hit the breaks - but if you do, the car will skid out of control - instead you need to steer properly, stop applying gas and so on.
I agree, if the purpose of the creation were for this world and nothing else, then Hashem, cv's, messed up really bad - but that is not the case. Hashem is very good at what He does and made a world as a prozdor, or corridor, before the great olam haba - the purpose of creation, to enjoy hashem's pleasure and sweetness of his presence.
There's a lot more to things than meets the eye.
I also happen to suffer from an anxiety condition. Baruch hashem, im pretty healthy, but for some reason, I tend to think I have all sorts of diseases r"l, and every time I feel a little funny my mind jumps to insane possibilities. If I were to listen to my impulses, I'd be insane by now - seriously.
Your impulses tell you that suffering is bad - we as humans, are supposed to look at it that way most of the time, i.e., when it comes to helping others, alleviating suffering, being sensitive, etc.., this is crucial to being an eved hashem - because i cannot be frum on someone else's cheshbon, saying to them, 'dont worry, this is for your good anyway, so ill just sit there and let you suffer', because I'm not G-d. I'm limited, and my perspective needs to be governed by values the torah gives me - I can never know why that person is suffering, and if hashem put me here, who knows? i might just be the shliach that hashem wants to use to end the suffering. I am also commanded by the torah to not be cruel, no matter what rationalizations I come up with.
So, when it comes to others, suffering needs to be looked at as an item that requires compassion, understanding, empathy, and so on - when it comes to questioning G-d, asking why He causes suffering and why the torah sometimes necessitates suffering(i.e., yehereg velo yaavor, amalek, etc..), or when it comes to my OWN suffering, then I can say what i said above, about atonement for sins, hashgacha, and so on.
(this is not my shtikel torah - it's the first perek of the mesilas yesorim, at least the part about the purpose of our lives, the suffering information is the simple reading of the statements of chazal)
Mussar teaches you how to live. But learning bava kama is living! - Rav Avigdor Miller ZT'L
|josh1||Posted - 01 November 2009 17:48
What would be the point of a totally perfect world?
|josh1||Posted - 25 November 2009 22:40
A great way to get some answers is to try to read the book called "garden of emunah", it may make you look at these "bad" things that happen differently.
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