Anything about JUDAISM
Anything about JUDAISM
profile | register | search


This is an archived site, for new discussion please see JewsWithQuestions.com
Forums | | Post Reply Send Topic To a Friend
Author Topic
asilbs2 Posted - 13 October 2009 15:39
MODERATOR'S NOTE: I am combining all your posts on this topic here

I am very lonely in the Orthodox community. I don't believe the Earth is 5770 years old, and I believe that 99.9% of all species that ever lived are extinct (evolution), and that Noah's flood, is surely an allegory.

Does Orthodoxy need to make reforms to accept people like me, openly?

asilbs2
Posted: 02 October 2009 2:58
The Talmud was wrong on astronomy, and wrong on medicine. How do we know they were right on Olam Haba?

asilbs2
Posted: 02 October 2009 2:56
If you were debating about the age of the universe, evolution etc., then I am afraid to tell you they are right.

You can accept in evolution and still be Orthodox!

MODERATOR Posted - 13 October 2009 19:37
Judaism should make reforms? You're stating anti-Torah beliefs, and you think Hashem should change the world to fit them?
Should we change the Torah to fit what everyone wants to believe? Should we also change the Torah to fit the beliefs of the irreligious? Of the Christians? Once we change it to make everyone more comfortable, where do we stop? What if traffic laws were changed to fit everyone beliefs? There would be chaos and destruction. Even secular law and beliefs don't work like that, kal vechomer Torah.
You say you can believe these things and still be orthodox, but you also say Judaism should be changed to fit whatever you happen to be feeling today. Don't you see a problem here?
All your questions have been addressed, and we would be happy to help you further.
But you first need to realize that no one can expect the world to be modified to fit around them. There is no such thing as "reforming" the Torah, it is perfect and eternal. It's Hashem's word.

But I doubt that is your problem. You surely realize all this.
So let's start from the beginning. What made you believe these thoughts?

joeym8 Posted - 01 November 2009 17:48
(I'm asilbs2. I forgot my password so I created an account with a new pseudonym-- sorry for the delay in replying)

First, by all means I'm not Orthodox by the haredi or even MO standard. I consider myself "A proud OTDer", that I didn't follow the beliefs of my parents etc. Check this site out: *********
My beliefs are somewhat that.

Well this all started last year when I read Richard Dawkins (note: I already accepted evolution before I read this book-- Slifkin's "Science of Torah" convinced me of that), even though I still believe in God, I don't believe he only favors "frum Jews".

TO put my religious beliefs in 2 sentences. "I believe, but don't know there is a God. But I accept the possibility there might not be"


Joey M.

taon Posted - 01 November 2009 17:48
I find it strange that you refer to Torah Judaism consistently and solely as Orthodoxy and Noach as Noah. Along with some of you choice of wording, and the general tone of your first post, I wonder if you are yet as religious as you claim to be.

But I can see how these things happen. We've seen how books supporting evolution, like Slifkin's, include doubting the veracity of Chachamim. Which leads to not listening to them, as we also see there. Next step is, unsurprisingly, not beliveing them in anything else.

MODERATOR Posted - 01 November 2009 20:11
Please don't post unverified links.

I put up your post to show everyone, including yourself, that you aren't saying anything new. Lots of people have read such books. You still aren't saying anything. If you want help with anything, we're happy to help. If you have something to ask, ask and we'll try to answer. But what is the point of announcing your thoughts?

Please don't demean yourself and others by doing this. Talk, but have a two-sided talk.

ProudlyJewish Posted - 25 November 2009 22:40
Sorry to tell you but there is plenty archological proof of the flood with Noach. Fossils as well as scriptures.
Evolution is just a theory, and carbon dating is based on a few assumptions I hope you know about.
Years ago people bought into the Roman gods, the Greek gods, and now we have this. Even though it seems so legitamite so us now, so did the idols to BN"Y many many years ago.
Think about that.

Moshiach Now! :)

Matisyohu28 Posted - 16 December 2009 17:38
This is why mussar is so important - this whole tragedy could have been avoided if this person had learned how to not be rebellious, how to not thrust man-made ideas and non-jewish ideas on G-d, what it means when we say that G-=d loves us and favors those who follow His Torah, etc.. - it's not as if G-d is biased; he created the world for people to get reward by earning it through performance of the mitzvos, those who perform the mitzvos are fulfilling his purpose of creation - hence, they are dearer to him than others. He also would have been very happy had the world been just people, no jews and goyim, just people - what happened? he offered the torah to everyone, and everyone but us rejected it because of their desires to sin. We declared our allegiance to G-d. They didn't - but g-d is merciful and allows them to become chasidei umos haolam, non-jews who follow the 7 mitzvos of noach, or as gerim, who are as jewish as you and I are.

Just because the whole world is wrong doesn't mean you're wrong for saying so. Wanting everyone to be right and evweryone to be the same no matter how evil they are or how much they do to destroy their souls and the souls of others(like dawkins), and ruin g-d's world, is the result of a yatzer hora for universalism and a lack of trust in g-d that peace and non-violence does not have to come through universalism and a 'everyone's right' philosophy.

we learn that from pinchos - peace is the result of harmony between people and their creator; not a UN council. People have responsibility for their actions - g-d gives us Jews certain advantages, mostly because we need them for all the more mitzvos we have than non-jews, also, our forefathers were righteous, and he thus has favor for us in that vein, for their sake, not so much on our own account.

G-d can favor anyone who decides to follow his Torah. Those that don't, well, that would be sort of like telling the president, i love your country, and I love all the benefits of living here, all the food stamps, welfare, safety, etc.., but you know what? i want to burn your flag in your face, break every law in the country, and demand a seat in your cabinet!

This is what a person is doing when he wants a good life without torah. He's demanding from the King without accepting His Laws, and making a mockery of His kingdom.(of course, this is a moshol; for us to understand, hashem has no emotions and never gets angry, it's just for our sake to understand better)

A jew who keeps the torah correctly leads every action in his life accroding to g-d;'y wisdom and sacrifices everything he has to serve g-d.

The average frei jew or goy on the street, I do not think does this, so why is that a problem? It's not a matter of uncontrollable circumstances, it's a matter of owing up to your decisions and paying the price for broken responsibilities and failures done through one's own free will.

That's very fair. Even more so, G-d still loves wicked people, so kind is He, neyond our understanding. Even when they're standing spitting at him in the face, sinning every second, destroying their souls, hurting others, hashem keeps them alive every second, and provides them with food, shelter, health, and a million other kindnesses we can never even imagine - sometimes he will give a person suffering, to wake him up, and to help him grow, again, because he loves us.

I'm also 'lonely' in the orthodox world - my hasmada is terrible, i dont have too much kavanah when davrning, and I sometimes have issues with the mitzvah of lo sasuru - yet i recognize them as such and dont make an opinion out of my failures - you al;so have a yazter hora, for alien beliefs, you are also making grave errors of assuming that the world always was as it is now(scientists themselves admit things change a lot), which is why you dont believe in the flood - you are not an expert on tthe world and its histroy, and you qwere not around by the flood, so how can you know if it happened or not? G-d is not a slave to the natural order, and if he declares it to change, it will change.

You're also making decisions that are not yours to make. If you were to spend time around tzadikim, see how they are in their daily lives, and see that they believe g-d favors them more than goyim, yet it doesnt make them arrogant hateful or anything of the sort - you wouldnt have these issues - you're asking orthodoxy to change for you - are you a tremendous torah scholar who has studied for decades and is able to demonstrate why the torah says you are right, and how this is in fact the truth of g-d and therefore should be reformed? No. So before you ask that 'judaism' be reformed, learn what judaism is.

Depending on where you live, you should find a big talmid chacham who will not judge you and will address your concerns (althoguh you need to present them respectfully and not sarcastically).

The moderator can help you find such a person - email him and he'll set you up.


yours, like my yatzer hora, can be conquered - you dont need to make a 'shita' of your yatzer hora and your issues with judaism.

Accepting emes means no liberal biases, no preconceived notions, no demands, just emes, straight and clear. Doubting the torah's ability to answer your questions is your first mistake - lack of knowledge might not be as much of your fault as this mistake; not trusting the depth of the torah and understanding your lack of torah knowledge.

You dont have any problems with torah - you have problems with your understanding of torah. You've been learning cheder-boy chumash for far too long, and you need some deeper stuff - dawkins however, is not the place to find it - he is called stupid even by other atheists.

Yahser koach slifkin, yasher koach - I really hope he reads this post(he himself posted here once many years ago) to see the results of his rebelliousness against gedolei yisroel and daas torah. gadol hamachtio yoser min'hahorgo

Mussar teaches you how to live. But learning bava kama is living! - Rav Avigdor Miller ZT'L

joeym8 Posted - 28 December 2009 1:33
taon,

I'm "religious" on my standards, which I write.

I use "Orthodoxy" instead of "Judaism" because Judaism is not just Orthodoxy. And I am talking about Orthodoxy.

Joey M.

Rabos Machashovos Posted - 04 August 2010 14:48
BS"D

I have a question about evolution (no, I don't believe in it) and species adaptation. Didn't Hashem make us "adapt" (for lack of a better word) in that people who come from hotter places have darker skin than those who come from colder places, in order to prevent sunburn? Even among Jews, North African Sefardim generally are darker than European Ashkenazim. In addition, how do you explain the fact that before the Europeans married into them, Native Americans did not grow facial hair, unlike everyone else in the world?

taon Posted - 06 September 2010 22:42
I doubt you'll find even evolutionists saying people evolve differently in different ethnicities, it sounds too much like saying other people are a lesser species. But HAshem could have put the possibility for all these changes in Adam's dna. Or after the dor haflagah (the generation who made the tower of bavel, in case my transliteration throws you off), when people were dispersed around the world, we're also told that some people's looks were changed. I am pretty sure Rav Hirsch zt"l talks about this, if anyone has his commentary available?
ari-free Posted - 18 October 2010 12:28
Once someone believes that it is somehow 'kosher' to believe in an old earth, it is inevitable that he will come to deny the flood of Noah and maybe even the rest of the Torah r'l. Why? Because most of the assumptions used to justify an old earth come from the assumption that there was no mabul. The mabul only makes sense if the earth is as old as the Torah says. You can't play around with one part of the Torah and expect everything else to make sense. The entire Torah must be understood in its totality.
And you also have to understand how the mabul operated. It wasn't just about a lot of rain. The water came from underground and Chazal tell us it was hot and mineral rich. When the earth was formed, there were no harmful radioactive elements. The underground geologic processes involved with the mabul CREATED the earth's radioactive elements (most of the energy was converted into kinetic energy). That's why people used to live ~900 years before and lifespans suddenly dropped after the mabul. (if it was just a result of the addition of meat in the diet, we'd find a lot of reallly old vegetarians) Are these long lifespans unbelievable? Yes, until you realize they were living during a time of giant 3 foot long dragonflies, 8 foot long scorpions and other ridiculously huge creatures.

ari-free Posted - 18 October 2010 12:28
Rabos you may want to check out Shabbos 31A
Also, read Spetner's Not by Chance.
I don't understand how anyone can take darwinism seriously in this day and age. Darwinists are so desperate that they even glued dead moths to tree trunks in order to prove natural selection. And that was just for an example of micro-evolution! I remember the pictures of embryos from my high school biology text. That was also shown to be a complete fraud.
nycguy1993 Posted - 02 February 2011 23:09
Not to bump but...

If you came here to argue writing "they were wrong on Astronomy, Olam Haba, and Medicine," then at least state specifics on what they were wrong on and provide your sources.

nycguy1993 Posted - 02 February 2011 23:09
"I believe, but don't know there is a God. But I accept the possibility there might not be"


Sounds like your an Agnostic but leaves Atheism open as an option.

FaithInOne Posted - 11 February 2011 3:45
Just by looking at nature you can see so many amazing proofs of Yad Hashem in the world and how there's no way evolution is possible.

Before I give an example, I'm just going to clarify what hydrophobic and superhydrophobic is. Hydrophobic means afraid of water and superhydrophobic means very afraid of water. The way it works is something that is hydrophobic will have a bead of water that stretches to reach a 150 degree angle or more. Basically, that item/thing that is hydrophobic will have minuscule bumps on it that will cause the water to bead up instead of spreading out. You can't feel these bumps, but they're there.

There's a type of beetle that has these tiny bumps on its back and so works the same way as something hydrophobic. It lives in an environment with very little water and so when it wants water, it lifts its back into the air and the moisture from any wind will catch on its back. Because it has these bumps, the water will bead up and then roll down its back and straight into its mouth. How can that be evolution? What could have created a mechanism such as this, besides for Hashem, who is the only person Who would be able to know the exact needs of every creature? This is only a tiny beetle, yet Hashem dictates every aspect of the world.

How is it that a bee knows where to land and exactly what is pollen?
Hashem created it like a puzzle piece. The bee will fit exactly into the pollen it needs in order to pick it up. If it's not pollen, the bee will be unable to pick it up with whatever it uses to get the pollen. Who else could have created this? Every creature was designed so intricately.

There are certain types of butterflies that have large "eyes" on their wings. They're not real eyes, but it's an illusion so that other animals won't try to eat the butterfly when they see the "eyes" from afar because they'll assume the animal is much larger. Is there anyone besides for Hashem who could have done this?

There is another beetle that's tale looks like a snake. This way, birds that are looking from afar will see the snake and not try to eat it out of fear. All these defensive ways of survival can only be the doing of Hashem. What "theory" can you use to disprove them?

There are certain types of bugs that live on leaves and they look like bird dropping, literally. This is so that any passing animal won't bother to kill it because of its camouflage.

There is a creature called a Frog Bird that blends exactly into the bark of a tree. Anything passing would not be able to tell the difference between that and the real tree.

Many snakes have tongues in the shape of a fork. They use this to taste and smell the air around them to detect food, enemies, etc. When they bring their tongue into their mouth, theirs an organ that can detect exactly what's out there and this is all just by sticking out its tongue. Can you imagine???

There's a beetle that squirts a harmful acidic solution as a defense against other creature. This acid can harm anything, but it doesn't harm the inside of the beetle.

All of these example are just a few of the many. How can it be that this precision came from evolution and not Hashem. What else could have known and calculated the exact needs of every creature, from the smallest to the largest, but Hashem???

nycguy1993 Posted - 10 March 2011 1:09
You should be skeptical when accepting anything as probable (There is no absolutes aka infalible proof in the world. But there is positive evidence! And juging by your posts, it seems you have not be applying critical thinking to your new beliefs). Richard Dawkins, by the way, is NOT a scientist. He is a Professor of Public Understanding of Science (Go look it up yourself.) Here is required reading material (imho) These are by people who have NO religious background, so its not just religious people who are skeptical of Evolution. I feel bad to always bring Rabbi Dr. Dovid Gottlieb in every post I make, but I recommend you listen to his shiurim on Evolution.
Johnson. Phillip, Darwin on Trail, 2nd ed., Intervarsity Presss, 1993.

Shapiro, Robert, Origins - A Skeptic's Guide to the Creation of Life on Earth, Bantam, 1986

Behe, Michael, Darwin's Black Box, Free Press, 1996

Raup, David, Extinction - Bad Genes or Bad Luck?, Norton, 1991

Stanley, Steven, The New Evolutioniariy Timetable, Basic Books, 1981

Crick, Francis, Life Itself - It's Origin and Nature, Simon and Schuster, 1981

Denton, Evolution:A Theory in Crisis, ??

If you want more reading material, just post here again. Since you claim to accept Evolution, have you atleast read The Origin of Species (Not 20 pages, but the full 900?) Not only will you get a the full taste of what C. Darwin had in store for the theory, but there is a great deal on the ethics of Evolution (which I assure, you will find interesting.) I cringe when I see people who go out of their area of speciality and make judgements in other fields they know nothing about *hints Richard Dawkins at his amature pop "philosophy."*

P.S. Not to sound arrogant, but you have a long list of books to read before making a intelligent decision on such a topic. Btw, go look up Darwin Wars, it will show you there are many competing theories within Evolution, like for example, Punctuated equilibriumis is the most well known competitor to the tradtional version. Punctuated equilibrium was theorized by Stephen Jay Gould, one of the most eminent scientist (Biologist) of the 20th century, FYI!

TO ADMIN: Sorry if my post is messy!

Kol Tuv,

NYCGuy1993

Click Here To Close Thread, Administrators & Moderators Only.

Show All Forums | Post Reply