Anything about JUDAISM
Anything about JUDAISM
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MODERATOR Posted - 18 January 2004 23:48
I am consolidating the follong group of posts and starting this new topic here:

Author: wayne
Posted: 18 November 2003 10:01

"tamim tehiyeh im Hashem elokaycha"= "you shall walk humbly (simply) with Hashem your G-d." right?
how is this a proof and what does it mean? I would think that it is like 'gam zu latova', whatever Hashem does is for the best. We have to thank G-d for everything. But not everyone does....


Author: yideleh
Posted: 18 November 2003 13:28
what's the issue of mekubalim who do all these calculations and know all these things about you all of a sudden, who give ppl kmaios and stuff like that. Is that considered kosher al pi din?

Author: unlively
Posted: 18 November 2003 16:52
can you ask Hashem for a sign and look for signs within nature to see what He answers?

Author: HZ
Posted: 18 November 2003 18:22
If they tell you something (and its true, not sure if any real ones are around anymore) totaly unasked for, aren't you supposed (or at least allowed) to be concerened about it while still trusting in Hashem?

Didn't R' Akiva keep inb mind that a fortune teller told her his daughter would die on her wedding day (she was saved by giving foof to the poor on that day)?

As an interesting note, R' Tatz says they (the real ones) don't tell the future, they tell the present. Like looking at the genes of a baby and knowing what he will look like.


MODERATOR Posted - 18 January 2004 23:52
One more...

Author: ggirl99
Posted: 28 December 2003 19:32
what abt those "ayin hora ladies"??? i personally dont belive in them but my friens mom goes all the time- for ne1 who duznt what what im talking abt this lady says a tefilah then says a bracha with ur name (__ bas/ben___) then pours a hot pot of lead into a pot of water, and it starts forming pictures, and she interprets those pics... ist supposeldy passed down for generations mother to daughter, so neways we asked my chumash teacher and she said theyre fake, but whats the halacha? and if theyre allowed, how can u tell the dif between the real ones and the fakers? these ayin hora ladies are very tznuis and they have very good childern, theyre very its hard to belive that they are doing s/t assur..

yideleh Posted - 30 January 2004 13:51
mod, thanks for posting that.
My question still remains though. What I asked was not necessarily about the future or what will be. There are some ppl who can "figure you out" based on gematriyos, and other things. Then they tell you that if you do x, y and z then you'll benefit tremendously. For example, if you want to do a successful business deal, then do it on this day, say this and this "magic formula" (usually certain tehillim and other stuff) and stuff like that. The scary part is that even though you're saying they're phony, they mamesh make things happen or do weird stuff, and I've heard this from eyewitnesses... How do we explain such things? Kochos Hatumah? In eretz Yisroel, there are many ppl in the sefardi community mainly, such as Rav David Batzri and others, who are knows to "know kabablah". I know one man who is in touch with all these ppl, kind of he's their talmid, and he does freaky things. So what? they're also using kochos hatumah? How does it work?
MODERATOR Posted - 30 January 2004 13:52
Same thing. Theyre witchdoctors, fakers or tumah-users, or both.
yideleh Posted - 01 February 2004 14:23
let me clarify that again. Rav David Batzri = kochos hatuma?
MODERATOR Posted - 01 February 2004 14:36
Rav Dovid Batzri was one of the three Rabbis invovled in the fake "dybuk" story about 6 years ago, right? They taped it, spread it out into the world to do Kiruv, and then it turned out ot be a fake, ads the "posessed" woman confessed - to all the newspapers! - that she was faking.

There were two other rabbis invovled in that as well. Some rabbis, particularly among the sefardim, seem to believe that "faking" supernatural phenomena will impress non-religious Jews and bring them back to Yidishket. And they are right - it does. Non-religious Sefardim are very very impresed with supernatural things.

Perhaps these things are done l'shaym shamayim, and regardless of whether it is proper or improper to do (I vote "improper"), it doesnt make it real.

The dybuk story, incidently, was a transparent hoax from the get go. The whoel thing, as documented on tape, made no sense. It was just a matter of time before the cat got out of the bag.

Rachack Posted - 01 February 2004 21:37
What about Rav Yonason Eybishitz (i totally misspelled the last name) Didn't he make like charms and stuff like that for people? (And yes I know that many ppl disagreed with him, but still he is looked at as a great Rav nowadays)

MODERATOR Posted - 06 February 2004 18:33
Rav Yonason Eyebushitz was indeed a great Godol, and was subject to the false and baseless accusation of his being a Shabse Tzvi-nik. But nobody B"H takes those misinformed accusations seriously (except some sensationalist maskilim who have nothing better to do with their life than trying to "out" Gedolim as being closet heretics. Sigh.)

Of course there is such a thing as Kameios (its in the Gemora and Shulchan Aruch and poskim), and Brachos, but they come from great Tzadikim like Rav Yoason Eyebushitz ZTL, not witch doctor women or amei haaretz or spiritual mediocrities.

Even regarding a prophet, the Rambam says that only someone who is established beforehand to be a tzadik and yorei shamayim to the Nth degree is acceptable as a Navi; if someone who is not a Torah Jew of great accomplishment professes to be a Navi, we know he is a faker or witch doctor or tumah user, and the rambam says this is true even if he indeed makes some miracles.

The Satmar Rebbe ZTL who was probably the greatest maven on these things in our times, was once asked about these Kabalah people who arent exceptional in the Yiras Shamayim - Talmidei Chachamim but claim to "see" things. This was his answer:

The Gemora says that beofre a baby is born, a malach comes and shows him the entire world form one end to the other, and teaches him the whoel torah. then when he is born he forgets the Torah.

Question: The Gemroa says that he forgets the Torah, but it doesnt say that he forgets his vision of the entire world. So why, when a baby is born, does he not know what the whoel world looks like from end to end?

Answer: Once he forgets his Torah, he no longer can see the world. Because without Torah, you cant see a thing.

In other words, Rav Yonason Eyebushitz is reliable; the GRA is reliable; the Chazon Ish is reliable. They have Torah. These others are useless to us.

MODERATOR Posted - 14 May 2006 23:50
Tamim Tihiyah (Devarim 18:13) is a Mitzvah that tells us not to care what fortune tellers or other future-seers say, because we know that Hashem is in charge of the world, and He can change whatever those people see in whatever they are lookign at anywya, so who cares what they say. And we should not have an intrerest in these peeks into the future, even if it is done in a way that is permitted according to the Torah (i.e. even if it is not kishef etc). In other words, we should not have anythign to do with any of those people who tell the future in any way whatsoever.

We also have no interest in looking into the future in any way whatsoever. Rather, we trust in Hashem that whatever He wants will happen, and that what happens is dependent on our ACTIONS, not somethign that thesel peopel see in our palms or the stars or our names or whatever.

ALl these types of people are either fakers - which is most of the time, the vast, vast majority - or utilizing some forces of tumah.

I would suggest that you get a hold of a wonderful work on this topic, by the Mekubal and Talmid Chacham Rav Yaakov Moshe Hillel, called Kuntres Tamim Tihiyeh, which is an excerpt form his Teshuvos Vayashav HaYam #16. After a very thorough treatment of the subject, he points out that in order to be on the level to know the future in gashmiyus things, such as those which these witch-doctors and pseudo-kabalah people claim to know, in any form whatsoever - unless youre using kochos hatumah - you have to be on the level of the grat nevviim. He quotes from the Tanya (Igros Kodesh 22) that even the great sages of Chazal who were baalei ruach hakodesh and knew the "streets of the heavens" as well as the streets of the earth, you still could not ask them the future - only the grat prophest liek SHmuel had that ability. And even to be on the level of e Baal Ruach HaKodesh of our times, you still have to be on an awesome level of righteousness (he quotes criteria from the Arizal), including learning Torah lishmah until he has no strength left, and much, much more than that.

On the contrary, he writes, such soothsayers and miracle-makers were never respcted in Klall Yisroel amongst the Gedolim, but rather they were looked down upon, and were the objexts of scorn, since obviously they were not on the level to make those miracles in a Kosher way. When the Gedolim found ou about such a person, they would prohibit people to go to see him.

If you want to get a Brachah from someone, he says, go to the known and established Gedolim and Tzadikim, the rabbanim and poskim, the spreaders of Torah, those whose righteousness is known to all.

That having been said, it is known that certain women - and this means only certain ones, not every one who claims to be - do have a Mesorah aboutdealing with ayin horah. I know that recently Rav Elyashev sent someone to one of these women. I also heard that Rav Ysef Chaim Sonnenfeld's wife used ot be into this, too. However, all this means is thatbif Rav Elyashev or someone else like him endorses one of these women, you can rely on him. There are many, many fakers out there. And tumah-users.

por favor Posted - 07 July 2006 22:24
thanks mod.
satinsword13 Posted - 11 September 2006 0:31
Mod, for YEARS, i thought you could ask Hashem for signs, and hten a rebbi of mine told me it's not true. so please can u answer mine and unlively's question about if you can ask Hashem for signs?
also, what about mekubalim who dont tell the future-but they seem to know a lot about you and your life, and they give you stuff to say, and tell you what to do based on how they see who you are automatically. i go to one every so often, what do we hold about them- not future tellers, but stam mekubalim?
MODERATOR Posted - 11 September 2006 0:34
They tell you what to do? What do you mean what to do? Doesnt the Torha already tell us what to do?

Answer this quesiton for me please: DOes your Kabblaah fuy know how to learn? And if so how well?

sitrakafka Posted - 29 March 2007 23:31

i find your comments on sefardic mekubalim condescending. youve generalized sefardic mekubalim and basically claimed they are known for making up fake supernatural stories. you give them no other credit and it isnt fair.

bottom line is rav batzris story is the only one ive heard of so far, and yet the man is still a huge mekubal, but nevermind for now. if you want to talk about rav david abuchazira, rav kaduri, rav yonatan bezalel, the baba sali, rav mordechai eliyahu, rav petaya, or any other great sefardic mekubal, please list some of the fake supernatural stories they are responsible for, because i know of absolutely none.

funny thing is - there are many famous supernatural stories about chasidic rebbes! there are hundreds of them! to say this occurs "particularly among sefardim" is simply false. how many miracle stories are there about the ba'al shem tov and satmar rebbe? but you make no mention of them.

and please dont tell me it was different with chasidic rebbes because their stories are actually really true.


taon Posted - 30 March 2007 1:22
since the Moderator isn't here as much anymore, I'll try to answer what the Rabbi would answer. it seemed to me that Rav Moderator wan't saying all or even most sefard mekubalim are fakers. He just mentioned some cases as warnings so people don't get ricked into these things when they aren't real. and those Chassidic stories dont involve using miracles to convince irreligious Jews, do they? I didin't mean that sarcastically, I thought you might be reffering to some stories i haven't heard. the Moderator was not speaking against sefardim.
depressedAngel Posted - 30 March 2007 18:12
u really do have to be sure the person ur going to is real cuz if its not than its an issur dioyaisa so even tho there are mant real ones out there, there are also many fakers so u gotta b careful
sprinkles Posted - 01 April 2007 19:40
my friend just told me that the reason i probably have such bad luck is cuz i have an ayin hora on me and that i should get it removed. what does that mean?
she also said when ppl r jealous of u, it gives u an ayin hora and bad things(like all the bad luck i have) happen
is any of this true, and if so, what am i supposed to do about it?
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