Anything about JUDAISM
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FEIVEL Posted - 05 June 2000 23:43
I have a question about cholov yisroel products.

WHy is it that many a times, school canteens will permit the sale of non-CY (Cholov Yisroel) products when the hanholon hold CY and so is the milk they are given each morn.. Additionally, I would like to know the two sides of keeping/not-keeping CY and if it is a real CHUMRAH or just REALLY good advice. Lastly, if one wishes to keep CY but his household does not, how does he work around it...

thank you

MODERATOR Posted - 08 June 2000 19:11
I can't speak for any particular Hanholos that I do not know of personally. You will have to ask them what their reason is.

The story with Cholov Yisroel is as follows:

Cholov Yisroel is obligatory. It may even be d'oraisa. The thing is, Rav Moshe ZTL holds it is possible that the milk we have in America is all Cholov Yisroel, since the requirement for Cholov Yisroel may simply be that we have to be sure the milk is from a kosher animal, and the government inspectors fulfill that requirement.

If this is true, all milk is Cholov Yisroel in America today.

However, Rav Moshe ZTL throws a wrench into the works because he adds to the above that "nevertheless, a baal nefesh ("spiritual person") should be stringent."

Many have taken this to mean that Rav Moshe ZTL believes cholov yisroel to be only a chumrah, or a "good hanhagah", binding only on extra special people.

But Rav Moshe ZTL himself was asked what this means, and he reponded in writing, to Rabbi Weinfeld ZTL of Monsey. The letter has been printed in both Rav Moshe's handwriting and plain text in numerous places. The easiest place for you to see it is probably Rabbi Binyomin Forst's "Hilchos Kashrus", in the back of the sefer.

Rav Moshe writes clearly that it is totally improper for someone who has cholov yisroel available to rely on the milk of the companies, even if the cholov yisroel is somewhat more expensive and more difficult to acquire. The heter was designed, he says, for people with no access to cholov yisroel.

Case closed.

And that's just Rav Moshe's position. Other Rabbonim have disagreed with the entire heter of Rav Moshe altogether (a godol of the previous generation, when asked what he thought of Rav Moshe's heter, replied, "You give me $20 and I'll give you 4 inspectors").

Edited by - admindealing on 6/11/2000 5:27:03 PM

curiousg Posted - 14 June 2000 4:26
Do non-cholov yisroel products have any affect on the utensils in which they are cooked? Meaning, should one who is "makpid" on cholov yisroel, cook cholov yisroel products in pots which are also used for non-cholov yisroel products?
MODERATOR Posted - 28 June 2000 16:27
We have a rule that food cooked in a utensil makes it as if that food is still in the utensil, even if you took it all out. So the status of the pot is the same as the food cooked in it. No difference.

Of course, after 24 hours from the time it was cooked there, the food is "nosen taam lifgam", which means that from then on, we only give the pot the status of the food previously cooked therein l'chatchilah. but b'dieved, if food was cooked there, we don't throw it out. Even if it was pig milk that was originally cooked in the pot.

curiousg Posted - 05 July 2000 20:49
Thank You for responding but I'm not sure I understand. My family is not makpid on Chalav Yisrael but I started keeping it. Therefore, now , whenever my mother cooks something I will be eating, she only uses chalav yisrael products. Nonetheless, we are of course using the same utensils & pots. Other family members use the utensils with non-chalav yisrael products. Does this mean I am not really keeping chalav yisrael?
mt Posted - 05 July 2000 20:49
Does that mean that if someone is Makpid about Cholov Yisroel and they eat in the house of someone who is not (Non-Cholv Yisroel has been cooked in the utensils),they are eating a Non-Cholov Yisroel product?
Seconly we learned in school that acording to Reb Moishe's Heter it's better to be Makpid but if there is a reason you favor Non-Cholov Yisroel products over Cholov Yisroel it is permisable to eat it (such as taste or flavor).

MODERATOR Posted - 21 July 2000 3:31
This means that cholov akum is treated the same way, utensils-wise, as plain non-kosher. Therefore, if you want to eat cholov yisroel only and you hold that plain non-supervised milk is not cholov yisroel, then you cannot eat from kaylim where plain milk was cooked. However:

After 24 hours from the time of cooking, the non-kosher status of the pot "expires". We do not, l'chatchilah, cook food even in an expired non-kosher pot, but b'dieved, if food was cookedthere, it is Kosher. if oyu are in a situation where it is extremely difficult for you to eat from non-cholov-stam pots (such as you live in the house), you may qualify for a status of "shas had'chak", which we treat the same as b'dieved, which means you would be able to eat the food cooked in the pot after 24 hours. If three is a rav who knows the details of your particular situation, ask him. If not, please describe it here as best you can.

hopeful Posted - 21 July 2000 21:17
Moderator:Firstly:I was under the impression that what we have in the U.S. (but not other countries) was called chalav stam and was differant than chalav akum because we do know the milk comes from a kosher animal.But my real question is this: I was told by my Rav that I did not have to incoviniance my mother by being makpid on cholov yisrael. Please explain your position, are you saying that someone still living in their parents' (kosher)home must be makpid on cholov yisrael even if it will inconveniance parents and other members of the household ? Remember also- that not everyone lives in brooklyn. Some people may take what your saying to mean that they may demand their parents buy new pots to cook their cholov yisrael food or other things which may be a breach of kibbud av v'aim. There will be plenty of time for anyone who wants to keep cholov yisrael to do so- after they leave their parents' home -Im yirtza Hashem!

MODERATOR Posted - 21 July 2000 21:27
Cholov Stam is an expression. Halachicly, you still have to drink Cholov Yisroel. The question is, that if you KNOW milk is kosher, that may be Cholov Yisroel anyway, so that all our milk in America is actually Cholov Yisroel. This idea was suggested by Rav Moshe.

However, he himself said that you should not rely on this unless yu have to. Even if it is somewhat more difficult to get Cholov Yisroel (i.e. supervised by a Jew), and it is somewhat more expensive, it is not proper to drink anything else.

Step 2. If you are only drinking Cholov Yisroel (i.e. supervised by a Jew), you need to make sure that the pots from which you are eating are not used for anything else. It is simple: The pots of any type of food make everything cooked in them like that food. Milchig pots make milchigs, fleishig pots make fleishig, treif pots make trief, and Hershey's chocolate pots (i.e. pots where Hershey's chocolate was cooked) gives the spaghetti that you subsequently cooked in that pot the same status of Hershey's chocolate. Whatever your position on the chocolate will also be your position on the spaghetti.

Of course, this Halachah is subject to all the myriad details of the Halachos of Kashrus of pots, such as nosen taam lifgam, nat bar nat, etc. So like all Kashrus issues, you need to know the specific details of the case before you make a ruling. But these are the general ideas.

hopeful Posted - 25 July 2000 1:16
Moderator:you still have not answered my main question! Are you saying that a teenager living in his/her parents household must be makpid on cholov yisrael to the point of inconviencing the rest of the family? And which Rav poskened this? I think we are all already clear on what the halacha is and what Rav Moshe's tshuva means to a person making their own choices however that is not the same as the sitation I am describing. Since the moderator isn't stating it clearly enough: If you are a kid living in your parents otherwise kosher home and you want to keep chalv yisrael consult your Rav about your specific situation! do not even talk about it to your parents until you speak to your Rav! if you don't have a rav get one.
peace and love to all
MODERATOR Posted - 25 July 2000 1:21
hopeful,

I figured that the answer was clear from my last post. The answer is that just like if you are makpid on Kosher you have to have kosher keylim, if you are makpid on cholov yisroel you have to have cholov yisroel kaylim. Cholov Yisroel is a part of Kashrus, with the same laws of kaylim as anything else.

However, just like non-kosher kaylim do not always prohbit the food cooked in them b'dieved (such as aino ben-yomo), the same thing applies to non-cholov yisroel kaylim. Therefore, you may be allowed to eat from your particular circumstances, which I have no way of assessing here.

However, this is a quesiton only if you CANNOT eat from cholov yisroel kaylim no matter what. This is not l'chatchilah. So first you should try as much as you can to make sure you eat from cholov yisroel kaylim. If that will not happen, and only if that will for sure not happen, you should ask a shailah as to how to proceed.


Edited by - admindealing on 7/26/2000 2:26:16 PM

Edited by - admindealing on 7/26/2000 2:26:39 PM

artzanu Posted - 26 July 2000 18:27
A:) woulden't it just bebetter in his case (curiousg)where his family does not eat cholov yisrael - to reply on rav moshes heter?

and the same thing to hopeful, u did not exactly answered her question she asked if she should start holding from CY now or rely on rav moshes opinion that all USA milk is CY whie she is living in a house where her parents hold from rav moshes leniency.

It seems to me (and her rav evidentaly) that it is much better advice to tell the person to rely on rav moshe and if they want to when theye stablish their own bayit neaman, that they can buy only special CY milk then. If she was to bother her parents about the pots and pans when they are not doing anything wrong it would likely create tensions, It could almsot create a mitzva haba biaveyra, it doesnt help to be makpid on soem things and do those at the expense of others.

Rav moshe understood that any company advertisong MILK must legally make that cows milk unless stated otherwise, I dont think any respectabl company would sell pigs milk in a cows milk bottle, a fly by night company maybe woudent so so concernd with USDA inspectors catching them.

C:) according to what u said that if u have it available you should eat only cholov yisrol, well heres a question - can this be done on a case by case basis, for example in your grocery you have cholov yisroel milk, but you wish to eat candybars that are not because theres not much selection of kosher ones?

also if one lives in an area where CY milk is plentiful, and genarally hold CY if he goes out of town, is it like a mingag now that he cant break or can s/he drink regular.

By the way this is another great reason to live in Israel its all cholov yisrael!

MODERATOR Posted - 26 July 2000 18:32
Artz, please refer to my previous posts. Rav Moshe himself said that he did not intend people to rely on his heter if it is possible for them to get cholov yisroel.

In the case of the chocolate bar, you would not be allowed to eat the chocolate. it would not work on a case by case basis. The issue here is that there is a "possible" heter, not a "fur sure" heter - as Rav moshe himself describes it (his words: there are "tzdadim" to be maikel), and therefore shouod not be relied upon unless necessary. Eating the candy bar is not necessary.

The people who go out of town, if they are now in a situation where they cannot acquire cholov yisroel and it is a necessity to acquire milk (for whatever theoretical reason) then Rav Moshe would say his heter is applicable.

The point is: (a) Is it a necessity to drink this milk, and (b) Is it not possible for moe to get Cholov Yisroel.

If those 2 conditions are met, Rav Moshe would apply his ruling.

Malkah Posted - 26 July 2000 21:43
Does powedered milk need to be CY?
(I have heard of people who do each way)
MODERATOR Posted - 26 July 2000 21:45
It is a disagreement between the Chazon Ish and R. Zvi Pesach Frank. (The Chazon Ish holds it does have to be Cholov Yisroel).
atyasgaz Posted - 16 August 2000 20:13
i am very very confused. my family eats cholov stam but i do not. to tell uthe truth i know the resons for cholov yisrael but i am not exactly sure why i do it. i guess part of it is that it makes me fel like im doing something right that i dont HAVE to be doing. but i eat dairy equipment stuff - i mean most ppl do from what i know and i dont understand why it would be any different then eating off any plate in my house - which i do and so so other people who keep cholov yisrael. also i dont have powdered milk cuz i just dont - i was only 12 when i decided to become cholov yisrael so i did not know exactly what was with all these different parts such as powdered milk. i do eat not cholov yisrael butter because my brother told me that even at his yeshiva they dont serve cholov yisrael butter because it is not possible to make butter out of pig milk. i am very confused by what u r saying. am i doing things wrong by eating dairy equipment and stuff? also if u havta kep cholov yisrael if it is available how come not everyone does? i am so confused. i dont even know what i hold by because i am not going by what my father does because he eats cholov stam.
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