Anything about JUDAISM
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montypython Posted - 28 December 2000 3:35
I was molested a few years back and it still haunts me now, sometimes. I was wondering if this has ever happened to anyone else on this board. I've been in group therapy, so I've met countless others like me, but never anybody religious. It just doesn't seem like the type of thing that happens to "nice Jewish girls." I know it's really, really tough to talk about sometimes, but it would be kind of nice to know that I'm not the only one. Has this happened to anybody else??

Me Posted - 29 December 2000 22:03
I'm sorry to hear it happened to you. you must be having nightmares from it. I feel for ppl like you and I admire those who can still stand strong!!! I wish you alot of hatzlacha. :)
Star Posted - 29 December 2000 22:03
montypython, I can't say I went through what you did but I share your pain. I'm sorry you had to go through what you did and I hope Hashem gives you the strength and guidance to get on with your life. Yes, I know that it's easy to say that and what you went through will probably always be in your mind but hopefully, you will one day be stronger because of the abuse you went through. I'm not in the same situation as you but I live with a somewhat dysfunctional family so I know what it means to think "I'm the only one" but the truth is, you're not alone. It's just that everything is more hidden in the Jewish community than in any other community. We tend to think we frum people don't have the same problems but we really do. No one talks about it, that's the difference.
1WhoCares Posted - 29 December 2000 22:18
Monty, let me tell you... I know of at least 3 girls who have been. It isn't talked about much in the "frum" communities and maybe it should be!
Has group therapy and stuff helped you out a lot?
Baruch Hashem I've never been raped or molested but help me out here, what can I do for a friend who HAS been...?? Like, I could never understand how hard it must be for her to wake up every morning or the fear she has when she remembers that time. I admire you for bringing up this topic here.
-One Who Cares
MODERATOR Posted - 30 December 2000 0:15
Monty,

It's true, you are not alone. It's also true that although this happens even in the frum community, it happens a lot less than in the secualar world. The theory that Jews just don't talk about it as much has already been disproven in scientific studies. Much of the data is collected in Rabbi Lawrence Kelleman's "Permission to Receive". Even regarding addiction, different cultures get adicted at different rates, and Jews, in general, are the lowest. The thing is, the more we integrate into secular culture, the more we accept secular values and secular attitudes and therefore we lose our cultural advantages over other people. For interesting literature on this see http://www.lindesmith.org/lindesmith/library/grpeel6.html and http://www.peele.net/lib/sociocul.html

It is clear that our values have a tremendous effect on our functionality. The more we stray from the Torah as a society, the more messed up, as a society, we will be.

Monty, what happened to you was terrible. But you can beat it. I know others in your position, and they did survive. When something happens to you like that, it's not just the fear of others that haunts you (this depends a lot on age and I don't know how old you are), but its the fear of yourself. Many people in your position are scared of themselves "changing", and some do change. Maybe they become more promiscuous, maybe they feels new Yetzer Horahs that they never before had.

And of course you ought to go for professional help to try to undo the effects of your experience. But.

But you can help yourself too. You can do for yourself what the shriks can't because the shrinks don't understand a neshoma, shich you have, and which is going to help you here.

Listen, Monty, our feelings and behaviors are divided into 2 types:

(a) what we cannot control, and
(b) what we can control

Here's the rule: How good or bad we are depends completely and totally on catagory #2.

Hakol bidei shamayim chutz m'yiras shamayim. Everything is done by G-d except your choices. What you cannot choose is not your responsibility.

Again; Whatever happens to you that was not your choice you are not responsible for.

This includes our feelings, desires, attractions, and appetites. Sometimes we purposely strengthen our Yetzer Horah, like when a person goes mized swimming and gets lewd thoughts, he is responsible since he chose to be there in the first place.

But whatever we desire that we did not choose to desire, whatever we want that we did nto choose to want, whatever we feel that we did not choose to feel, whatever we are attracted to that we did not choose to be attracted to -- that's from Hashem. It's not even part of us, meaning our soul. It's part of the Yetzer Horah.

Having a yetzer Horah is fine. It doesn't matter what flavor the Yetzer Horah is - vanilla or more exotic - it's still there from hashem. And as scary as the Yetzer Horah is, when we look into it and say "My gosh! THAT's me????" you need to answer yourself ,"No, it's not me, it's my Yetzer Horah."

What we can control, usually, are our actions. So if this incident leaves oyu alone and doesn't effect you, Boruch Hashem, but if it does, you need to remember this: It can only affect those parts of you that you cannot control. That's not you. It can affect your feelings, your fears, your desires. And no matter what those are, they are not you. They are the Yetzer Horah. these feelings, fears, appetites do NOT makes us more or less holy.

Holiness, goodness, righteousness, means by definition our choices. if we did not choose them, then they do not affect our status in the eyes of Hashem. Even if your non-choice feelings change, your holiness is not diminished in the slightest.

Your job is to continue to choose to fight the Yetzer Horah and say no to bad and to say yes to good. This means what you DO, not what you feel or what you want. Please understand this.

I know someone who was molested very harshly. Very. It freaked him out. he survived because he lived with the realization that the only things that changed in him are his feelings and his desires. And all that means is new "nisyonos" in this world. OK, so we try to undo the nosyonos, that's fine. But since he didn't let whatever happend to him change his BEHAVIOR, he survived very well.

He understood that we don't identify with our desires or appetites -- that's not our identity. We identify with our CHOICES. Anything else does not effect our identity at all.

That's the rule that you need to place before you always: If it's something we did not choose, it is not us. It does not become part of us. It does not affect our identity. We can try to get rid of it, but regardless, we are what we choose. Everything else is just part of the darkness of this world, like sticks or stones. We see them, we feel them, but they have nothing to do with us.

I don't mean c"v to minimize the pain or the severity of what happened to you. When I say you can survive it is not because what happened to you is not big. Rather, it is because no matter how big or how evil or awful or firghtful it was, you, as a Tzelem Elokim, with a soul that has the power of Hashem Himself, can beat it. My words are intended to imapct on your understanding of yourself, not on the nature of tragedy that happened.

Edited by - admindealing on 1/1/2001 2:10:49 PM

ALEXIS16773 Posted - 08 January 2001 2:18
WELL I'M NOT REALLY WRITING ABOUT RAPE MOLEST, I'M WRITING MORE ABOUT ABUSE. OK, WELL THIS IS REALLY TWO TOPICS OF ABUSE.
THE FIRST IS, I HAVE AN AUNT WHO IS MENTALLY HANDICAPPED AND SHE LIVES WOTH US. ANYWAY, A FEW YEARS AGO WHEN I WAS AROUND 8 (I'M NOW 16) MY FATHER WOULD PURPOSLY PHYSICALLY BEST MY AUNT WHO IS COMPLETLY DEFENSELESS FOR NO REASON, HE WOULD TELL US TO GO IN THE NEXT ROOM AND WE WOULD "SECRETLY" WATCH MY FATHER DO HIS "DUTIES". MY AUNT IS NOW IN ICU FOR THE PAST FEW WEEKS FOR A SEVERE CASE OF PNUEMONIA AND JUST TODAT WHEN I WAS PRAYING FOR HER THIS POPPED INTO MY MIND AND IT HAS'NT FOR A LONG TIME AND NOW ALL I CAN THINK ABOUT IS THIS.
NUMBER TWO IS AROUND THA SAME PERIOD MY FATHER TOOK HIS ANGER ON ME AND TWICE HE REALLY HURT ME, ONCE WITH CLOSED FISTS AND THE OTHER WITH A BROOM.
THE REASON I'M WRITING TO YOU NOW IS THAT I WANT TO KNOW IF THERE'S ANYWAY NOW I CAN GET MY FATHER BACK? PLEASE GIVE ME SOME SOLUTIONS.
THANX aLEXIS
MODERATOR Posted - 08 January 2001 4:41
I assume you really mean "beat' your aunt. I also assume you mean "get your father BACK".

The issue isn't revenge. The issue is how to protect you and your siblings, and to get your father the help he needs.

This is tricky. if you call the authorities, they are likely to simply take you and your siblings away and throw you into the "system", which is not good.

I don't know your situation. there are many things oyu can try, but if you make the wrong move it could backfire and bring disaster.

Threatening to call the authorities may help, or even threatening to tell someone who is legally bound to call the authorities such as a social worker or doctor. Threaten but don't do this unless someone's life in seriously in danger.

What I would recommend is getting out of your house. Go to boarding school if possible, or live by a relative. If you so threaten, this iswhat you should bargain for. Let me out of this house or I will tell the authorities.

I also recommend that such threats should not be made directly by you but by an adult. Find someone you trust but is not legally bound to report abuse, such as a neighbor or relative, and let them do this. The reason is that you threatening your father may antagonize him further, possibly encouraging more violence, so if you can get someone else to do it if is better.

If however, someone's life is in danger there, there is no choice. You must call the authorities right away. If you don't know who to call in your area, tell your doctor or the principal in your school and they will do it.

NotSoHappy Posted - 12 January 2001 1:43
Hey Manty, I realized no one who was raped wrote back to u. well, i guess now someone did. I was raped about two and a half years ago, it was horrible!!! I had nightmares but kept to myself. Finally my friend realized something was wrong and I broke down and told her.
What I'm trying to say is.... ut not alone!!! even though its not discussed between frum ppl in public its still talked about in private, it does happen and u cant help that. The one thing my friend drilled into my head was that it wasnt my fault. So Monty, remember that and remember that ppl are always there when u need them and when u need help!!!
montypython Posted - 12 January 2001 10:52
Thanks for writing back. Not So Happy--are you getting help? If these kinds of issues remain unresolved, then there's a big chance that you'll have huge intimacy problems when you get married.
NotSoHappy Posted - 17 January 2001 4:12
Nope, I'm not getting help, I think that I deal with it ok until someone brings up the topic and then I go bananas but without talking about it I'm usually fine. Actually this past summer in camp one of my friends went over to the guidance counselor about me and mentioned this with a few other things and the guidance counselor came over to me. I happened to have not wanted to talk to her about it so I didnt but I know that if I wanted help there are people out there and when I feel I need it I'll go and find it.
How about u? does the therapy really work???
black Posted - 17 January 2001 21:28
NotSoHappy--
i understand youre not wanting to talk about it. i myself was never molested or raped, though i went through my own set of "problems"... a lot of my friends were raped, molested, abused ect. i knwo that it has taken them years to even say anything about it to anyone. even a therapist or best friend. i do know that dealing with it CAN help, and talking about it may not be enough. it may take a long time, like anything, but i feel its something that is necissary for the emotional well being of the victom and everyone who is part of her life. have you serioulsy talked to anyone about this? do your parents know? would you want to get help? has this chanegd the way you feel about people, the situations around you, your behaviors??? do you know who the person was who did this to you? did you do anything about it? i really wish you all well. there are a lot of people out there just like you and monty...a lot of people who are not strong enough to say anything, people who live with it all curled up inside until one day they just cant live iwth it anymore. we dont want that to happen, you dont want that to happen...we are all here fo you guys...

**BLACK**

k a s p e r Posted - 22 January 2001 23:50
hey ya'll.. rape is defined as "act of having sexual intercourse with someone against their will".. however, the courts say differently, if anything (fingers, sticks etc), enters you, it is rape and the defendant is charged with rape. I learned this when i was going through the courts because of my sexual assult. monty- trust me, you arent the only jewish girl that's been molested, unfortionatly, the jewish community has problems also. I know so many girls who have been sexually assulted by parents, friends and strangers.
It took about a year to get my mind working again. I know girls who still arent over it, 10 years later. It's perfectly normal that youre being "haunted" by it. But you have to get control of what you lost. When i was first molested, everytime i looked in the mirror i thought about it and cried. Because I lost my right to say NO.. therapists dont really know exactly how to help a victum "get over it".. at least mine didnt, u have to find the strength within you. However, in some senses, im still not back to normal because i keep trying to get my control back by taking others (not by raping them.) You have to realize that you have every right in the world to be upset, depressed etc, because of what happened to you. but you have to take control of those emotions and not let it effect you. you need to be strong, i know how hard it is.. i had to sit 3 feet away from my attacker and graphically describe what happened. i had to say it infront of his father, and 5 strangers. but monty, you need to go through the event in your head over and over again.. u have to become comfortable with it and accept that it happened. i dont mean comfortable as in, think of it as nothing.. but u need to accept it.. i wish u all the luck in the world..
play nice
k a s p e r
hehe sup black?
ImaGuy Posted - 23 January 2001 3:45
I, too, was hte victim of a rpae, but for me it was different, since I'm a male. Some people knew about it, and they would not believe it was actual rape. Even the ones that did, when I got into a fight with them, it came out in their anger that they really thought I did it on my own. No matter how much female rape victims are accused of saying yes, they should all know that it is much, much, worse for a guy. This is why statistics show that guys who are sexually assaulted almost never report it. I did not report it either. I am older than the girl. If she, in her own defense, were to reverse the accusation, the chances are she would be believed. Best case scenario, some ppl would beleive her and some me. I don't need that. Better, I think, for me to deal with this on my own. I don't need to add aggravation to trauma.
Star Posted - 30 January 2001 5:28
ImaGuy, I think it's terrible for anyone to be raped, male or female. But could you please expalain to me how a male could be raped?? I'm not denying anything if you think I am, I just want to know because I've heard of this before but I don't understand how this happens.
montypython Posted - 30 January 2001 5:34
Hi! I'm sorry I haven't written in a while. I was at a retreat and then I spent some time in the hospital to get my medication balanced.
It's oddly fascinating to see that there are other kids on this board who went through a lot of the same things. NotSo Happy-- you probably have Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, even though you haven't been diagnosed. That basically means that things can trigger and you can't control the response. You should know that there's a medication that's been approved for PTSD now, and talk therapy helps a lot. Estimated therapeutic recovery period for what I've been through is 2-10 years, and this is year 3. I try so hard...sometimes it seems like it's never going to end. But I do see a difference since I started therapy--I have less intrusive thoughts and I'm sleeping better. Once in a while things still trigger (usually at the most inconvenient times!) but if I take deep breaths and concentrate on accepting the memories and realizing that it wasn't my fault, I feel more at peace with the situation.

Kasper--I'm really amazed that you had the strength to do that. I had the opportunity to testify in court a long time ago, but the doctors decided I wasn't stable enough. I still don't know if I could do it now. What ever happened to him? Is he in jail or a juvenile detention facility?

lifeisgreat Posted - 30 January 2001 5:52
Hi guys.B"H I was never raped,but "little" things did hapen to me b4. different guys,did sertin things to me. They basicly went into "my property". but I was not strong inough to say anything. It hapend when I was young . I was 9, and then it hapend a few more times when I was 11. i was so young and pure! It really bothered me! I spoke about it with my best freind,and I still do. The worst part is that I know these boys,and I see them once in a while. It is totally dissgusting,and horible for boys to do these things! I dont know how they can bring themselfs to actualy do things like that! These boys even have good names!!!!! I feel bad that they have to deel with such strong Yetzer horos!!!


Edited by - admindealing on 2/6/2001 6:01:34 PM

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