profile | register | search
|Forums | |||Post Reply||Send Topic To a Friend|
|MODERATOR||Posted - 26 June 2003 19:27
Moved here from the "Dangers of Internet" forum:
Punims Posted - 23 June 2003 15:51
Yes, it is the Lubavitcher Rebbe's teachingas that his chasidim are following. They didnt make it up.
He also said that a Rebbe is "the self and essence of G-d in a body". They didnt make that up either.
He also abolished Halachos in the Torah based on Rebbe-worship, or rather, Rebbe-mimicking. He said that Lubavitchers - and only Lubavitchers - do not have ot sleep in a SUkkah because they feel bad that they are not on the level of their Rebbe who felt pain in the sukkah because it was so holy so he couldnt sleep there. He also said that Lubavitchers do not have to wash for shalosh seudos because since one of the Lubavitcher Rebbes couldnt bear to eat during such a holy time (he had the status of a choleh, I suppse) therefore, the Lubab chsdidim, even though they do not have that status, should imitate their rebbe and not eat either.
Note: The problem with the above "halachic" (sic) decisions is not that they dont sleep in a sukkah - there are heterim for that sometimes - nor is it that they dont wash for 3rd seudah - but rather the reasoning that he gives, namely, that the need ot imitate the behvior of a rebbe is sufficient reason to supercede the halachah. And in the case of sukkah, the obviously absurd notion that the imaginary pain of not having pain which you should have (why????) isf you are a lubavitcher chosid because you are not like your rebbe exempts you from the mitzvah.
It was the lubavitcher Rebeb who said that the Alter Rebbe (or was it the Tzemahc Tzedek?) was on a higher level than the Tana Rav Yochanan ben Zakai in "pnimiyus hatorah".
There is more, lots more - this is but a drp in the bucket: please see the "Other / Lubavtich" forum. But there is no question that the chisidim are only taking their rebbe's teachgins to their logival conclusion. You cant blame them - they are tinokos shenishbu.
And so, no, just as we do not recognize him as an authority when he was alive, his status does not change posthumously.
Can you quote him EXACTLY word for word and show me where he said that?
Second, when we get a request for tzedakah in the mail, they exaggerate all the time. "This girl cannot breathe without your help." Ok, she's sick and needs money, but I'd hope that she's still breathing whether I give money or not. So, they said Moshiach will arrive in their house... that's just a request for money. People exaggerate all the time when requesting money...
First of all, you asked me where the LR said that the Bais Hamikdosh is goign to be buitl in 770 since thats the "place of MOshiach". That quote says it.
But read it again please. It says not that "Moshiach will arrive in their house..." and its not "they" who said it. The Lubavitcher Rebeb said that the Bais Hamikdosh will be built first in 770 - because 770 is where Moshiach lives. From there, the Bais Hamikdash will fly to Yerushalayim.
He also clearly said that his father-in-law in the Nasi Hador, who is also going to be the Moshiach redeemer of Klall Yisroel, and his house - 770 is the house of Moshiach - the site of the Bais Hamikdash.
And of course, he said that Moshiach is going to be the Nasi of Chasidus of the generaiton as well, which is of course his father in law.
And you know - we all know -- that when he spoke about his father in law, he also meant, in our generaiton, himself. As he stated numerous times "His soul is in me."
So oyu think he reallty didnt mean any of this? ANd his pshat in the Rambam is just bogus? ANd he said that his house is moshiachs house and the bais hamikdash is gogin to be buitl there not because its true but because he wanted ppl to give him money? You mean that he just said that you shoudl give money because its moshiachs house even though its not, because he wanted peopel to give? If what you are sayign is true, hed be a fraud and a crook --- tellign peopel to givem oney to a cause thats false.
If hes exagerating -- then what the truth? His house is NOT MOshiachs house -- then what is it?
Thats not exageration, that a lie. And to ask for money based on a lie is a fraud -- youre saying hes just another guy who told people he was the Messiah in order to collect funds from them.
This discussion doesnt really belogn in this forum. I am reansfering it to a new forum called "Did the Lubavitcher Rebbe say He was Moshaich"?
|MODERATOR||Posted - 26 June 2003 21:19
The Moshiach beliefs in Lubavitch began with the Lubavithcer Rebbe's first Drasha that he gave at the beginning of his career, which they call in Chabad "Basi L'gani achosi kalah." There he says quite clearly that in our generaiton Moshiach will come for sure, since our generation is the seventh in the Lubavithcer dynasty, and it is clear that that is the generation that the final geulah will come. "And this is our generation - the seventh generation since the Admor Hazakan, has been chosen through Divine Providence to complete the bringing down of the shechinah to the world in an established and permanent way via the Final Redemption.
How he decided this is a long story, and it doesnt really matter much. Suffice it to say that this has been the CHabad shita for the past 50 years.
He also mentioned, not surprisingly, the Moshe Rabbeinu's prominence is that he was the "seventh". And we all know that the Moshiach of the generation is the Moshe of the generaiton, and that Moshe - the seventh - will be the final redeemer of Klall Yisroel.
Of course, he said this at the commencment of his own stepping up to be the seventh Rebbe since the Alter Rebbe.
Do the math.
When the Brisker Rav ZTL saw this speech, he commented "this lunatic is convincing himself that he is moshiach!"
Thats a quote.
And it got worse as the years went by.
5751: The Lubavitcher Rebbe interprets the following Medrash:
"The year that Moshiach will be revealed, all the goyishe kings will fight with each other ... the king pf persia will fight with the king of the arabs, and the arab king will run to the King of Aram to seek advice ... all the nations will be in an uproar and a panic ... and the Jews will be in an uproaor and panic saying 'WHere will we escape to?' and then G-d will tell the Jews: 'My children do not be afraid, for oyur redemtion has arrived' ... WHen Moshiach comes, he will stand on the roof of the Bais Hamikdash and announce' The Time of your redemtion has arrived.!"
The Lubavitcher Rebeb interpreted that to mean not the Bais Hamikdash, but 770 Eastern Parkway is the place from where Moshiach will announce the final Geulah has arrived. Why 770? Because that is "Moshiach's house."
During the firts Gulf War, the Lubavithcer Rebbe tried to fit the words of that Medrash into current events ("Aram" becomes America somehow - and Persian becomes Iraq!), and guess how the Lubavitcher Rebbe neded his interpretaiton:
"It is obvious that these events do not affect Bnei Yisroel at all ... what the Jews ... have to know now is: Your time of redemption has arrived!" (Sichos 5751 p.284)
Yes, thats what Moshiach (or G-d) is going to announce precisely at the time when that Medrash is fullfilled. According to the Lubavitcher Reeb, the Medrash was fulfilled, and guess who made the announcement?
And guess from where? 770 - the place Moshiach will announce it from.
So we have the right time - as described in the Medrash - the right place - 770 - and guess who's the right "person" in this equation?
More: Teh Medrash of course says that all this is going to happen "B'shah shemelech hamashiach bah" - when the King Moshiach comes. The Lubavithcer Rebbe stated then, "Hinei zeh Moshiach bah!" - Behold! Moshiach comes!
"Nowadays we have not only the existence of Moshiach but also the revelation of Moshiach. All that we need to do is accept him."
Who exactly did he mean? How can we accept the revelation of Moshiach if we dont know who he is?
Obviosuly we do know.
It is the one, acording to the Lubavitcher Rebbe, who annoucnes from 770, during the first Gulf War, that "The time of your redemtion has arrived."
Of course, it was a self-fulfilling prophecy. Because the Lubavitcher Rebbe himslef pointed out: "Many signs of the Geulah have already transpired, beginning with the sign in the Medrash of [the announcement of] "Your time of redemtion has arrived." (Sichos 5752 p.98)
Guess who was the one who made that annoucnement?
And to him that proves that "signs of the redemtion" have occured.
By "coincidence" that same person also happens to be the seventh Rebbe - Nasi, they call them in Chabad - Nasi HaDor - in the Lubavitch dynasty.
And we know that the Nasi HaDor is the MOshiach of the Dor, and that the seventh generation - during the seventh Nasi - the FINAL Moshiach will arrive.
And that Moshiach is the Nasi Hador -- meaning the Rebbe of Chabad.
ALso, the Lubavithcer Rebeb added - the Nasi of Chasidus in the generation, since the Baal Shem Tov was told that Moshiach will come when Chasidus is diseminated in the world (NOte: The Baal SHem Tov was never told that -- the story meant somethgin totally different, but in Chabad they make this claim anyway).
And guess who just happneed to embark on a campaign of diseminating Chasidus because doign so means Moshiach will come?
Yup. Same person.
(The Lubavithcer Rebb told the Dinever Rebbe that the main reason for his Kiruv campaign was due to that story where the Baal SHem tov was told that by spreading CHasidus, Moshiach will come - Kuntres Hachai yiten el libo.)
And guess who's Torah are being diseminated?
Thats right -- the Tanya. The Torahs of Lubavitch.
And the Lubavitcher Rebbe was careful to explain: "we should learn .... especially the Toras HaChasidus, for through it MOshiach will come as per the story of yefutzu mayanasechah [i.e. - the story of the Baal Shem Tov cited above - MOD] of our Nesisim, and especially the Torah - speeches and Likutei Sichos - of the Nasi of our Dor - a refelction and example and preparation for learning the Torah of Moshiach ... (SIchos 6 Iyar 5751)
So ther oyu have it -- his Torahs - Likutei Sichos - are the Torahs of the Nasi Hador; learning them (i.e. especially them) - fulfills the spreading of Moshiach's Torah in the story of the Baal SHem Tov.
You dont need a rcket scientist to see who he clearly believes to be Moshiach.
Moshiach is here he said; he is revealed. All we need is to "accept him in actuality." (Sichos 5752 p.97)
"We see that many of the signs of the redemtion have occured ... and we see in actuality fulfillment of "and he will fight Hashem's battles [i.e. one of the signs the Rambam gives for being able to identify the person who is MOshiach ---- if he fulfills this, among other signs, you can safely assume the person who did this is Moshiach. We are not talking here about ssigns of the Geulah but rather signs of the Goel himself! - MOD] ... it is understood that the shluchim are already established a long time after the beginning of the shlichus of ... 'hafotzas mayanos chutzah' [i.e. the story of the baal shem tov again --- moshiach's torahs have to be spread thorughout the world according to chabad and then moshiach will come. He is saying that this spreading of moshiachs wellsprings has been happening through his shluchim] ... yet moshiach hasnt come yet. Obviously, there is somethgin more we must do. And it is: As per the well known fact that there is someone in each generation form the seed of Yehuda who is worthy of being moshiach - one who is worthy by way of his righteousness to be hte redeemer, and when the time comes g-d will reveal Himself to him and send him ... and according to the announcement of my father-in-law, the Nasi of our generation ... the only moshicah of our generation that everythign is already prepared, an ... it is understood from that, that the only thing we have left to do is: to accept Moshiach in actuality, literally. (same sichah as above)
"This that a prophet has to have another prophet testify to his authenticity as a prophet does not apply to the Nasi HaDor, and to the extension of [the Nesius] in the next Dor through his talmidim - for he is assumed to be a prophet and does not need any authentication, rather, we must obey him immediatly and right away, even before he proves himself, and "it is forbidden to have doubts about his prophecy that perhaps it is not true... rather, since it is know that this person is a prophet they should beleive in him and know that G-d is in their midst and they may not doubt him - because they belieev in the worlds of the prophet not because they are the words of the prophet but rather they are the worlds of G-d through this prophet ... there is a[halachic] ruling as per the above, that we must publicize to every person in this generation: that we have had the merit that G-d chose and designated a being with free-will, who by his own right is infinitely greater than than the people of his generation, that he should be 'your judges' and 'your instructors', and the prophet of the generation, who will give rulings and instructions relevent to the avodah of all Jews, and all people in this generation, in all issues of Torah and Mitzvos, and also about gebral day to day living, and also about "all your actions" (being lshem shamayim)" (Sichos Shoftim 7 Elul 5751)
|BaronPhilip||Posted - 26 June 2003 22:38
There is absolute no one in the world who has looked closely at the statements of the Lubavitcher Rebbe and does not agree that he very clearly declared himself to be Moshiach. Period. Anyone who says otherwise is either simply ignorant of the facts.
(There are also a few who say--or imply--this because they are simply liars. Some members of the old Lubavitcher PR machinery, the so-called "anti-meshichist" camp, will try to passively leave you with the impression that the Rebbe never declared himself Moshiach, so that they don't have to explicitly lie. Ask these spin-doctors point blank, "Are you telling me that the Lubavitcher Rebbe did not confidently believe that he was the Moshiach he kept saying was 'already before our eyes'?" Incidently, this is one reason the "meshichist" camp resents the rabbonim in the "anti-meshichist" camp and perceives them as sell-outs and hypocrites: They know that the anti-meshichisten are deliberately and consciously misleading people, in order to preserve and raise money for their own institutions.)
|cbuster_03||Posted - 27 June 2003 0:03
Woah, Mod. Thise things that you quote from the Lubavithcer Rebbe, like the stuff about the Bais Hamikdash being built first in 770, and the thing about the "bal bechirah" beging chosen to lead the world, thats crazy stuff! Now I seriously am awed by the Brisker Rav's statment when he said about the Lubavitcher Rebbe that "this lunatic is convincing himself that he is moshiach." If there is anything to learn form this whole Lubavitch fiasco it is that the Gedolay Yisroel are so perceptive and their Daas is the true Daas Torah. I would bet when the Brisker Rav said this, and when the other Gedolim said those things about the Lubavithcer Rebbe they didnt even know of the items that you quoted, and yet they figured it out on their own. If there needs to be any "proof" of the greatness of our Gedolim and the power of their vision, let the world see this! I am truly impressed how deeply they saw through him.
|MODERATOR||Posted - 27 June 2003 1:08
After reading your post again, it seems that you do not realize that those quotes were not from Lubavitcher CHasidim -- that was the Rebbe himself making a Dvar Torah. It wasnt a letter for an appeal -- it was the Rebbe himself in front of all his chasidim darshoning about how 770 is the home of moshiach and that it is there - not anywhere else in the world - that the Bais Hamikdsoh will be built.
As far as, "First of all, he did not say that he *is* Moshiach", well, your search specifically for the word "is" reminds me of one of our past presidents on the witness stand...
"Is" is not the only way to say "is."
|e||Posted - 14 July 2003 20:04
okay fine, the rebbe said he was mashiach. but WHY IN THE WORLD WOULD ANYONE DO THAT - DID HE REALLY BELIEVE HE WAS MASHIACH, WAS HE OUT OF TOUCH WITH REALITY? WAT WAS THE MOTIVE OF ALL HIS MASHIACH RAVES? HOW COULD A GREAT LEADER MISS THE BOAT BY SO FAR?
|Cookie||Posted - 14 July 2003 20:04
i don't understand.
i am not lubavich, by the way.
the lubavicher rebbe gave brachos that really came true and he also started a huge kiruv project. he obviously did great things-how does this fit in with the image of a "lunatic" who is trying to convince ppl that he is moshiach?
|peaceinisrael||Posted - 14 July 2003 20:04
im not a lubab, and i cant say i agree with alot of the things that go on with the moshiach issue, but speaking about what some of the followers do is 1 thing,
but badmouthing the rebbe himself or whatever you call it, is obviously playing with fire.
Yes, you will find some Gedolim that didnt exactly agree with everything Lubab did the past 50 years, but the words that you quoted from the Brisker Rav, were some of the most horrible, shocking words I have heard in my life. I immeidately thought of wahat Piekei Avos says is Perek 2, Mishna 11....
Putting all isues aside, you have to say that the Rebbe was a holy person. Please, dont have the audacity and shamfulness to deny the literally thousands of miracle stories that happened over the years. Whenver I mention this issue to anyone they bring an example of a story they heard that wasnt true, and thru this disqualify the other stories as well. But, I think this is a very childish approach. Who cares about a few unconfirmed stories when you have hundreds of 1st hand, miricle stories...including those told of doctors and proffesional . Im especially adament on this issue as my younger brother was born with a complication that to this day the doctors have said "Ive never had any other baby survive with such a problem..." And yes, this was due to the Rebbes Bracha.
Obviously, these miriacles happened because the Rebbe was a Holy Person, one who displayed more Ahavas Yiosroel than any anyone else. Which other 90 year old stood inline for 6 hours to talk to any person....
another thing that speaks for itself is their amazing accomplishments. please dont get involved in the nitty gritty details wether they do it the best or were the 1st etc, the facts remain, that only due to the lubavitcher rebbe thousands of jews have returned to a jewish lifestyle. although there are many great kiruv orginizations, the dedication and sencerity clearly is not the same. Its not a job for the Lubabs...its not 9-5...its their life..they will stay up nights, go in debt, and have no socail life. And who do these people go crazy for the sake of other Jews...because they feel thats the way the Rebbe felt about every Jew.
whatsoever for the sake of other Jews...
Once again, I have my differences with them on many issues, and I am put off by many of the moshiach advertsemnts, etc...but I know one thing...Their Rebbe was an incredible, holy Jew, and we must watch the words we say when speaking about Jewsih leaders.
Waiting to hear from you...
|yw||Posted - 15 July 2003 1:27
Psychic powers and other phenomena prove nothing meaningful. We know there are supernatural powers, but many of them are not from kedusha (rememeber Bilaam?). Followers of other religions can tell you just as many stories about their "saints." What matters is if the person is faithful to Torah and inspires others to serve Hashem properly, according to halachah. And the fact that he was willing to spend much time with people doesn't prove anything; you would do it too if you were famous for doing it.
|BaronPhilip||Posted - 16 July 2003 12:36
I don't even know where to begin with you.
Your whole idea of Judaism goes in circles. This is what you sound like: "We must love and revere the Lubavitcher Rebbe! Why? Because he was an incredible, holy Jew. How do we know that he was such a holy, holy man? Because we love and revere him so much!"
You say that we should not speak against the Lubavitcher Rebbe because he was a holy man and a great Torah leader. But that's THE WHOLE POINT of why we're criticizing him in the first place! We are trying to establish and demonstrate that the man was NOT AT ALL a true Torah leader. (even though he may have been a selfless and well-meaning person)
As far as all the "miracles", I have yet to meet anyone in person who has had anything even remotely "miraculous" happen to them because of the Rebbe. For goodness' sakes, kid, use your head! I hate to point out such a gruesome thing, but think about the following: For every person whose child "suddenly recovered" from a disease after a "brochoh" from the rebbe, how do you know that there weren't _1000_ people whose children did NOT recover?! Have you really never heard the expression "even a broken clock is right twice a day"? The fact is that the vast, vast majority of people (including everyone I've ever met) who received a "brochoh" or took advice from the rebbe NEVER ended up experiencing anything unusually fortunate afterwards.
Think of all those foolish people who go to those quack Christian televagelists who seem to be able to "heal" them from all their illnesses. There have been THOUSANDS of these poor simpletons. They line up (for many hours sometimes) to see the preacher, who puts his hands on their heads and says "There! You are now healed from your arthritis/limp/deafness/back pain/etc.!" And you know what? All these people think they are healed! They are absolutely convinced! And this is all on national TV! No one can deny these stories!
The explanation is obvious: When a person is desperate to have hope, to believe in something, he finds a way to believe in it. This is the classic trait of all superstitions, and the classic profile of all cults. Go to a library, and take out ANY BOOK on cults with miracle-working leaders. If you believe that the Lubavitcher Rebbe was a "holy man", then you also have to believe in the "holiness" of Mother Teresa, the founder of the Nation of Islam, all those Indian faithhealers, African witchdoctors, and voodoo masters, and every gypsie with a crystal ball. If anything, according to your strange, superstitious idea of "holiness", a person should follow (c"v) the Christian religion. There are many, many more BILLIONS of people of people in the world who have believed in the "miracles" of the founder of Christianity (and in his "undeniably" great concern for the welfare of every human being). And there are stories about all the Christian saints and all the miracles they did and how much they cared for everybody. Isn't that PROOF that they all were "holy men"? Maybe we shouldn't dare "start up" with them because that would be "playing with fire", right?
Wise, Torah-learned Jews have never been so gullible. Study Jewish history: WE HAVE ALWAYS LOOKED FIRST AND FOREMOST TO AUTHENTIC TORAH SCHOLARSHIP AND A MASTERY OF OUR MESORAH FOR SIGNS OF TORAH LEADERSHIP. WE DO NOT SIMPLY FOLLOW THE GUY WHO CAN DO THE MOST MAGIC TRICKS OR WHO SPENDS THE GREATEST NUMBER OF HOURS LISTENING TO SICK PEOPLE ASK FOR BLESSINGS. Lubavitchers, on the other hand, behave in just the opposite manner. They, like you, use circular logic to show that their rebbe was a "holy man", and then interpret every silly accident and coincidence they see to mean something extremely profound. If their rebbe so much as blinked his eyes, they attributed to that gesture everything good that would happen to everyone for that entire WEEK. Just the way Lubavitchers play with gematrias so much is example enough of their tendency to regard even the most trivial coincidences as things worth pondering.
If we don't care what BILLIONS of superstitious Christians have been believing in for 2000 years, then why should we care what a few thousand misguided simpletons have been believing in for a few decades? Since when do we turn to masses of gullible people to tell us who is "holy" and who "isn't"? Judaism has always been about QUALITY, not QUANTITY. And the fact is, simply, that the people going around with all the miracle stories about the rebbe are NEVER the great, learned individuals of the Jewish people. On the contrary, THE _VAST MAJORITY_ OF OUR GEDOLEI TORAH, THOSE OF _DEMONSTRATED_ MASTERY OF TORAH, OF THE LAST TWO GENERATIONS REGARDED THE LUBAVITCHER REBBE AS AT BEST A NICE BUT MISGUIDED MAN, AND AT WORST A VERY DANGEROUS INFLUENCE.
You think that it was just the Brisker Rav and Rav Shach who said those "awful things" about the Rebbe? You think that it was only "some gedolim" who had "some problems" with the Lubavitcher chasidim but that everyone respected the Rebbe? Hello, _REALITY CHECK_! The universally recognized poseik hador, HaGaon HaRav Yosef Shalom Elyashiv, shlit"a, supported everything Rav Shach said, INCLUDING ALL THE PERSONAL CRITICISMS OF THE REBBE. (By the way, Rav Elyashiv is also a great mekubbal, from a long family line of mekubbalim.) Other leading poskim and roshei yeshiva who have strongly condemned the Lubavitcher Rebbe HIMSELF (NOT just the chassidim) include the poskim Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach, ztz"l, and ylcht"a Rav Moshe Sternbuch, shlita. We can include the following gedolei Torah from recent generations (in no particular order): Rav Aharon Kotler, Rav Yitchak Hutner, Rav Yaakov Weinberg, Rav Yechezkel Abramsky, the Gerrer Rebbe, and the Steipler Gaon. The position of the Chazon Ish, ztz"l, on the Lubavitcher Rebbe is well known. The Chazon Ish once told the Rosh Yeshiva of Chevron that the Rebbe's sichos contained "apikorsus". A questioner once asked Rav Chaim Shmuelevitz, "but doesn't Chabad do good things?" Rav Chaim's response? "So does the Vatican." On another occasion Rav Chaim said, "When you are dealing with avodah zarah, the 'good' is no different from the 'bad'." Rav Ovadia Yosef's position is also well known. Rav Ovadia regards many of the statements of the Lubavitcher Rebbe as LITERALLY ASSUR TO REPEAT, as "KEFIRAH MAMASH", and as INCITEMENTS TO AVODAH ZARAH.
I've already posted on this board some of the extremely harsh criticisms that I've personally heard from Rav Henoch Leibowitz regarding the Lubavitcher Rebbe. Rav Henoch (the retiring Rosh Yeshiva of Chofetz Chaim), is a very moderate and soft-spoken man, and is not known for being a "kanoi" or for creating machlokes with anyone. So it is all the more striking and thought-provoking that he would speak with such fierceness and urgency regarding the Lubavitcher Rebbe.
And, for whatever it's worth, now that I have looked into it, I can tell the readership of this board with certainty that Rav Yosef Ber Soloveitchik of YU did NOT regard the Lubavitcher Rebbe as a serious talmid chacham. Rav Soloveitchik frequently caught obvious mistakes and/or superficial thinking in the Torah learning he heard and read from the Lubavitcher Rebbe. Speak to Rav Soloveitchik's older, closer talmidim and you will hear the stories. I'd like to add that even many of those few who were sympathetic to the Rebbe did not regard him as a true "gadol" with high-caliber Torah learning. Take the much maligned Rav Ahron Soloveichik (Rav Yosef Ber's younger brother). Even though Rav Ahron had a soft spot for the Lubavitcher Rebbe, Rav Ahron often commented that "in learning" the man "did not have the proper havana". (I heard this directly from Rav Ahron's Shammas, who it directly from him.)Because Rav Hutner had once learned with the rebbe when they were both much younger, Rav Henoch Leibowitz once approached Rav Hutner to ask him if the Rebbe was a great talmid chacham. Rav Hutner's answer was in the negative. As far as Rav Hutner (or any other great lomdan) could see, what the Lubavitcher Rebbe excelled in was merely in his "bekius" (his memory of sources), while he was weak in terms of "havana", of precise and deep understanding. (I've always found it fascinating that Lubavitchers always refer to their rebbe as a "great baki", and NEVER as a "great lomdan". We can see that results of decades of "leadership" by a man like this: A gigantic community where the highest form of gemara learning known is simply the superficial memorizing of page after page.
But this is not mean-spirited, petty nitpicking, rabbosai! These are actually the important issues! It is MAINLY THROUGH THESE CONSIDERATIONS that we decide if someone is an authentic Torah leader or not. To decide whether or not someone is a gadol, we must examine his spoken and written teachings, and look for signs of utter mastery, of precise, and rigorous comprehension of the deepest, most basic principles of the Torah. And all along we must always maintain a healthy sense of skepticism. (but not cynicism of course)
Once we have established that we are dealing with true Gadol BaTorah, then--and only them--can it be confidently said that we are dealing with a holy man.
And while a true Gadol baTorah will always be a great baal chesed, on the other hand, a great baal chesed is certainly not necessarily a Gadol BeTorah! Mother Teresa also did a lot of chesed in her life, but does that make her a gadol? (It doesn't even make her Jewish.)
So stop going around counting silly miracle stories, and stop using your stopwatch to figure out how many hours a day the rebbe "sacrificed" for Jews. I have two new things for you to do:
(1) Ask yourself this: If all your "miracles" and acts of chesed are such solid "proofs" that the Rebbe was a great Jewish leader, then why is it no great talmid chacham, no respected poseik, no revered Rosh Yeshiva has even changed their mind because of that? (And please don't tell me that it's because they were/are all jealous. If you are really inclined to use that "jealousy" explanation to answer everything, then I suggest that you stop reading this right now and immediately make an appointment with a psychiatrist and tell him all about this and any other paranoid delusions, hallucinations, or conspiracy theories you may be having. I'd like to help you with this, but I'm not a doctor.)
(2) Please, I beg you: OPEN UP A GEMARA AND START LEARNING, SERIOUSLY. Dive into the great sea that is Shas and Poskim, that is the most fundamental inheritance of the Jewish people. Learn as much gemara as you can, and delve into it deeply day and night. Eventually, you will begin to see what it's all about and you will develop a passion for learning it. And you will begin to recognize true greatness in learning when you see it. And what's even better is that you will begin UNDERSTAND what being a gadol is; that it's not some supernatural power you are born with or get one day for being really sweet to people. What being a gadol REALLY is, is the result of decades of mental and intellectual accomplishment, decades of pouring and agonizing over gemaras and other texts, decades of pushing the human mind to the limits to make it grow smarter and stronger and finer (the same way an athlete trains his muscles), decades of tirelessly working on one's character to improve it to the point that one's every gesture is now for the sake of a mitzvah. This isn't magic miracle tricks, this is simply unrelentingly hard work that must go on for decades and decades in order to produce greatness. And what is this greatness? How is it discernable? By the number of people give brachos to? By the number of sick people you heal? Study Jewish history: Was there ever a prominent Jewish community or a beis din or a yeshiva that looked for those qualities when they had to hire a new Rav, Dayan, or Rosh Yeshiva? (By the way, there is not ONE SINGLE to be found miracle story in all five volumes of R. Dov Katz's classic work "Tenuas HaMusar", which contains biographical information and stories about most of the great Torah leaders of the last two centuries.)
If you succeed in your learning endeavors, you will naturally be drawn to others and places where knowledge of Torah is on a high level. After you move to be among such individuals, see how many of them have rebbe-miracle stories to tell. And, more importantly, go to your leaders there, your rebbeim, roshei yeshiva, poskim, and see if ANY of them--the learned of our people, those whose opinions should really matter--see if ANY of them think the Lubavitcher Rebbe was a great, holy Jewish leader against whom it is forbidden to say a critical thing.
BTW, peaceinisrael, you claim to not be a Lubavitcher but that sounds hard to believe. Your whole presentation was a hackneyed, cliched feel-good repackaged processed Lubavitch soundbite that has been repeated (here and elsewhere) so many times that it's beginning to sound very funny. But, more strikingly, you said that we shouldn't "start up" with the Rebbe because that would be like "playing with fire." It's a dead givaway. No one but a Lubavitcher would even THINK in such strange terms. If only I had a nickel for every Lubavitcher I've heard use these weird expressions.
"Starting up"? (With a dead man?) "Playing with fire"?
Can't you guys at least come up with such new material already? Maybe instead of "starting up with fire" you might say that we are "drowning under his holy water" or something...
|MODERATOR||Posted - 16 July 2003 16:15
In our religion, Ther performance of miracles is not a reason to follow someone. In Chitianity it is that way, but not in Judaism.
In Judaism, the only - I repeat: the only criterion for determining between holy and unholy teachings is if they follow the Torah or not. So if you want to defend the Lubavithcer Rebbe's teachings, it does nto work to say "Well he did miracles!"
The followers of the Neviei sheker defended their "leaders" by the fact that they performed miracles (and they really did!), and the false Messiahs throughout the generaitons got people to follow them by performing real miracles as well.
And by doing Kiruv, too.
Here's what Rav Yaakov Sasportes ZTZ, the major opponent of the false Messiah Shabse Tzvi (ys"v) writes about why people believed in this false Messiah:
"And these events penetrated into the hearts of the of the public, and impressed even some Chachamim, and thus were awakened to do tremendous Teshuva - all of Klall Yisroel, the Kerovim and the Rechokim throughout the entire world ... thw whole world did lofty Teshuva ... fasting, disciplining themselves, fasts that sometimes lasted from shabbos to shabbos, even immersing in freezing Mikvaos in the winter, and other such things; [the movement of teshuva was]indescribable and unimaginable ..." (Tzitsa novel Tzvi, beginning of sefer)
Here's more, from the Responsa Koach Shor (# 31), a contemporary of the Baal Shem Tov who was held in very high regard by the Besht):
"The following is a reliable story, from which we can see the extent that the Satan goes to steer Jews away from the true Emunah c"v:
"The above mentioned Tzadik was arguing with 'that man', Frank, the head of the Shabse Tzvi's followers in his days. He asked Frank how Shabse Tzvi can be so brazen as to against the Torah ... the evil one asnwered that the entire Torah was given until the days of the Moshiach, the tekufah of the Shabse Tzvi and his followers (MOD's note: I assume he was referring to a warped understanding of the Gemora's ruling "Mitzvos beteilos l'asid lavo"), after which new Torah is revealed. The tzadik asked him, "How can you prove what you are saying is true against the fact that we all witnessed and have in possession only this Torah? Why should we believe you?"
"The rasha answered, "You cannt say that you rememebr seeing Kabbalas HaTorah with your own eyes. Rather, you believe the historical account from generation to generaiton - which is correct, for would parents lie to their children? Therefore, based on that logic, I will call upon your parents, which are already dead, to return here to earth right now and tell you the truth, that the time has already come when Moshe Rabbeinu's Torahs are secondary"
The Tzadik said "Do it! Let me see that happen!"
"And the evil Frank merely mumbled with his lips, and there entered two people - the fatehr and the mother of the Tzadik! The Tzadik recognized them as his parents. They said to him "My son, you should know that the Torah of Moshe was given only until the revelation of Shabse Tzvi, but from then on, you should follow whatever Shabse Tzvi says, for he is Moshiach!"
Moderator's Interjection: What, cookie and e, do oyu think the proper reaction is? Imagine yourself in this position.... Now here's the rest of the story:
"The Tzadik asnwerd them, 'Where does it say that one must honor their father and mother and that it is forbidden to strike them? Only in the Torah of Moshe Rabbeinu! If you are right and Moshe's Torah is obsolete, then it is permitted to beat up your parents!'
"He proceeded to take a large stick and repeatedly smash his parents in their heads, over and over.
"The parents fell to the ground and everyone around saw that the illusion was lifted and the "parents" were really two carcasses of dogs"
Writes the Satmar Rebbe ZTL about the Shabse Tzvi (Vayoel Moshe p.188):
"The reason that the majority of Jews followed him was because Shabse Tzvi was an expert in all of shas and poskim, and all the writings of the Arizal. All of it was commonplace on his lips even when he was a young boy of 15 years. His Avodah, too, with fasts and sigufim and shiros v'sichbachos was awesome in the eyes of anyone who witnessed it. He also displayed awesome wonders and miracles and brought back thousands of Jews to Teshuva. And wherever they went, they made Baalei Teshuva. All of this is reorded in the seforim of Rav Yaakov Sasportes and Rav Yaakov Emden and other seforim that talk about this. So it is no wonder that he had the ability to fool the entire nation who and starving and thirsting and their soul yearns for the Geulah."
The Satmar Rebbe therefore used to explain Chazal's statemnt: "Im rabchah domeh alechah l'malach hashem tzivakos - if youre Rebbi is liek an angel, that is, a supernatural being, above this world - yevakesh torah mipihu - you better check out his torahs and see if he knows what hes talking about. For that is the only criterion to just a Rebbi."
In the desert, the nation, the "dor deah" saw a miracle: an image of Moshe dead on har sinai. This was not kishef - for it was not caused by people - it was seen by them. And this caused them to believe that Moshe was dead and therefore they made the egel.
But they should have looked into the Torah to see if they should make the egel - not at miracles.
The dor haflagah, the medrash says, shot arrows into the sky to "kill Hashem" c"v.
The arrows came back dripping with blood. They thought they succeeded. This, too, was not kishef - the perpretrators themselevs were fooled. This was the satan "testing" them to see if they would look at what it says in the Torah to determine what they should do, or will they look at miracles.
As it says regarding the Navi sheker who performs miracles: "ki menaseh hashem elokeinu eschem!" Says Rashi: "Why does G-d give the navi sheker the power to perform miracles? To test you."
Even when a miracle is a halachic requirement, such as for a navi to prove he is a navi, the Rambam writes: "Even though it is possible that he is not a navi [even if he males a miracle], because the miracle can have "other things invovled" (yesh devorim b'go), nevertheless, since [the first requiremtne is that] he must be a chacham and adam godol, and worthy of prophecy [even withotu a miracle], we can assume he is a navi because he is established to be ligtimate [by virtue of his character and torah etc]"
In other words, the miracle cannot prove that a person is legitimately great; rather, a person's greatness proves that he made legitimate miracles.
And because we are instructed to determine those who we follow only on the basis of their Torah and not their miracles, the followers of miracle-making fakers are punished just as the fakers themselevs, sicne they (the followers) had no right to believe in someone because of miracles. The Navi Yermiyah tried to defend Klall Yisroel for following the Nevii Sheker, but Hashem refuted him, saying that the people are indeed responsible:
"And I said 'O Hashem, behold the Neviim say to the people 'You will see no sword etc.'" And Hashem answered me: 'The prophest are saying lies in My name. I did not send them, I did not command them and I did not speak to them. A false vision, predicting the future through means other than prophecy, nothingness and lies they tell you' ".
The Radak explains that Yirmiyah was trying to defend Klall Yisroel for following the neviei habal because they perform real supernatural signs, so how can the people know better?
Hashem said they can know better, and that following signs is not excuse, because the true prophets teach them true Torah and the false ones teach them against the Torah.
[b[ The only criteria to determine who to follow is if his teachings are in accordance with the Torah. Miracles or fulfilled blessings or signs and wonders play absolutely no role in the decision.
There is a reason given in the seforim why the Satan will assist a false leader, and especially a false Moshiach, to be mekarev many people to Judaism and then make them go off the derech.
Rav Yonason Eyebushitz ZTL (Yaaros Dvash 1:1) writes that sometimes you will see a rasha do teshuva, only to fall again later on. The reason this happens, he says, is because his Teshuva was not the result of his fighting the Yezter Horah, but rather the Yezter Horah helping him do Teshuva! This happens because it is much more satisfying for the Satan when a good religius Jew falls than when a rasha falls. So just as the butcher will feed and take care of the sheep in order to fatten him up for the slaughter, so to the Satan will take a person and feed him spiritually, and make him strng and healthy, in order to "slaughter" him later on.
Rav Yaakov Sasportes ZTL says that this is why Shabse Tzvi had such success making Baalei Teshuva. The Satan was helping them in order to get them to believe in this false messiah thereby having a good, repented Jew going off the derech.
We dont know what is going on in Shamayim, but if someone is a tinok shnishbah, and then later become frum and believes a Rebbe is the Essence of G-d in a body, or that he is doing Mitzvos in order to please the Rebbe, or various other idolatrous and heretical beliefs, the victory for the Satan is great.
I once was sitting next to a Rebbe at a chasanah, who I knew respected the Lubavithcer Rebbe. SOMehow this came up in discussion at the table, and he said "There is bad by him, true, but look how many people he made frum! So the balance 'probably' comes out posiitve"
I said, "Tell me, ***** Rebbe, how many baaei teshuva does it take to make up for on word of Minus (apikorsus) or avodah zorah that is spoken there? Tell me how you came up with that balance?"
He thought to himselse for a while, and then loked ta me and said, "dus is a giteh shailah."
Then he tried saying that perhaps it is the chasidim, who are mostly uneducated and of weak background, that are responsible for the idolatry there, since they arent well-versed in torah enough to avoid those pitfalls.
I told him about some of the thigns the Rebbe said, and when i was done he asked me if I could fax the material to him because it is hard to believe.
I faxed him the material the next day (it contained what is posted on this site) and he called me in shock "mavhildik'e zachin" he was repeating over and over in a daze("Shocking things").
He said "this is a problem". I didnt push the matter and the conversation was over.
Peace, please dont think that "some gedolim disagreed with what he did." Most of them didnt even know what he did or said - rememebr: the Lubavithcer Rebbe had a policy well known to his people not to reveal anythgin about chabad that would reduce respect for it in the eyes of the world. If somethign "hindered the learning of chasidus in the world" (read: chabad chasidus as interpreted by him) - then it was not to be done. If someone thing increased the learning of chasidus - then it should be done. It all revovles around what is best for Lubavitch.
Not single godol or someone close to beign a godol defended any of the deviant teachigns of the Lubavitcher Rebbe. They said either he is a "unatic" (The Brisker Rav), a shoteh(The Satmar Rebbe), or, as Rabbi Avigdor Miller said as an explanation of why he attended the Lubavitcher Rebbe's funeral, "He was not in his right mind for the past 20 years so he is not responsible for what he said."
And Rabbi Miller was NOT an opponent of the Lubavithcer Rebbe. The reason? He judged him favorably, that he was not in his right mind.
There is no question that he had great merit for his Kiruv efforts, even though they were motivated by his needing to do so in order for him to fulfill his interpretation Moshiach's famous statment to the Besht: "When your Torahs will be diseminated I will come." You cant bring (read: be) Moshiach without diseminating Chasidus - and that, the Lubavitcher Rebbe said is the main mitovation for his Kiruv movement (stated to the Divenver Rebbe - Kuntres Hachai Yiten el Libo).
However, none of that and none of his other myriad good deeds diminish the accuracy of any of the charges leveld against him, nor do they indicate that he was a holy man in any way whatsoever.
If you want to defend him you will have to defend the thigns that he taught. And that, so far, has not been done by anyone.
Miracles and Disasters
There is surely great exagerration when the Lubavithcer Chasidim describe the "miracles" of their rebbe. However, even if the stories are true, as I showed, they make no difference.
But there is something distincly and uniquly negative in the stories about the Lubavitcher Rebbe's Brochos as opposed to those of the Tzadikim.
If someone blesses a sikc peron that they should live but they dont, its not a probem - not every blessing comes true; even if someone "guarantees" that the baby will live and he doesnt, c"v, it has happened. Things affect guarantees after they were given.
However, if a rebbe tells someone to do somethign that is al pi deerech hatevah stupid and dangerous, and guarantees he will be safe, and then gets hurt, thats kind of eye-raising.
There was a story once of the Satmar Rebbe ZTL, where his driver was caught in unexpectedly heavy traffic errev shabbos, and he was not going ot make it home in time.
What he did was, he told the driver "drive on the other side of the highway against traffic - my achrayus."
The driver did, and there was no oncoming traffic for miles, even though it was a normally heavily traveleld highway on both sides. (The dirver of that car is still alive, telling this story to his grandchildren and others.)
Now for a Rebbe to tell someone to do somethgin thats a sakanah is wrong -- unless he "knew" that there really was no skanah invovled, and there would be no traffic, in which case there was never a sakanah.
But lets say he told this driver to drive against traffic and then POW! rahcmanah latzlan.
That Rebbe would be responsible. You dont do somethgin liek that unless you really know what youre talking about.
This is not the same as "guaranteeing" a recovery form illness. This is willingly putting someone's life in your hands.
And even though the Brachos of Tzadikim, and sometimes even their guarantess do not always have to come true, when you advise someone to go agaisnt common sense, putting them in direct danger, you really better know what youre doing.
But the Lubavithcer Rebbe was accustomed to do just that, and disaster oftne struck. WHen the residents of South Africa asked him, a number of years ago, whether they should move out to another country due to the terrible danger and near anarchy that goes on in the streest there, especially in the Jewish neighborhoods (the human anumals purposely go into the white neighborhoods because they know thats where the money is), he told them to stay htere, because South Africa will remain safe.
Most people left anyway. But the Lubavithcers and those who believed the Rebbe's outrageous guarantee evenbought houses and put money into the ones they had.
It was a debacle of major proportions. Johannesburg is the most dangerous place for a Jew to live in the entire world. We're talkign the need for guard dogs, electrified fences, and being a prisoner in your own home. We're talking about savages who believe that raping a virgin cures you of AIDS (Im not kidding. And over 20% of the population is infected). People who are willing to kill for a few pennies.
This was not a blessing that didnt come ture - this was not a prediction that went awry. This was a foolhardy behvior that caused hardship for many, many Jews.
This irresponsibility puts the Lubavithcer Rebbe's advice in a different catagory than that of the Tzadikim.
|Truth Seeker||Posted - 16 July 2003 18:08
The following are copied from the 'Selected Quotes..' thread in the 'Dangers of the Internet' section. Please help to keep things organized. Thank you.
arib2b Posted - 14 July 2003 16:04
Yeah, but it's his own interpretation - he was the one that said that WE have, today, merited someon infinitely greater than everyone else that guides and avises the entire generation in ruchniyus and gashmiyus; that Likutei Sichos (his sefer - not his fatehr in law) needs to be learned as a preparation for Toras Moshiach; that the Neshama of his father in law is "in him: (and incidently, he is fulyl aware that his chasidim are familiar of the statement in the seforim, the the physical Moshiach will have the neshoma of previous moshiachs "in him"!); that he who continues the derech of the nasi hador is the nasi hador, and that the seventh one - the seventh = him not his fatehr in law - is the final moshe rabbeinu, the final nasi hador, the King Moshiach redeemer. Any normal person, with average intelligence (and certinaly those with above average) understands these words.
Dont forget - he didnt write this stuff in his diary that peopel can say perhaps he wasnt being clear. He said them to his people, they were broadcast on radio, printed up, and stated as public service announcments to al his baalei teshuva and those aspiring thereto. Its funny how everything else he said is understood simply, and only this has to be twisted and turned like a difficult Rambam that contradicts a Gemora. And even then, there is no other explanation.
ANd if you are right, that he didnt mean what he said, and his words are some kind of cryptic code that do not say what they mean, then you are agreeing with the SatmarRebbe ZTL who called the Lubavitcher Rebbe an "idiot" (shotah) for disseminating Torahs - from the Tanya and down - to the uneducated masses who are not capable of understanding it properly. If he really did what you said he did - provided garbled teachings with esoteric meanings that nobody has yet figured out but seem to say to the normal human mind that he is the Messiah, then he is - although the Satmar Rebbe's assessment does not need our approbation - a shoteh.
And anyway, youre not helping his cause. According to you, hes saying that his dead father-in-law is the Melech Hamoshiach who will build the Bais Hamikdash in 770 and then have it fly to Jerusalem. Thats nto any less absurd or objectionable than if he meant himlsef. Its even worse, since at least he was alive when he said those words. His father in law wasnt.
So if you do come up with some explanation in his words that would make the great Gedolim wrong about him, please let us know. Dont hold your breath, though
|BaronPhilip||Posted - 17 July 2003 23:41
I forgot to mention one more story reflecting the position of Rav Chaim Shmuelevitz, ztz"l, the great Rosh Yeshiva of the Mir Yeshiva in Yerushalayim.
According to MANY eyewitnesses who were present at the time, when one day Rav Chaim Shmuelevitz encountered a copy of the Lubavitcher Rebbe's "likkutei sichos" resting on a shtender in the yeshiva, he took it and THREW IT TO THE GROUND. This is a true and fully verified story.
This should help to drive home the point to many of you that the opposition to the Lubavitcher Rebbe HIMSELF (and not just to the actions of some crazy chasidim of his) came from gedolim other than Rav Shach and the Brisker Rav.
|Qs||Posted - 21 July 2003 19:30
So, if Lubavitch is full of Avodah Zara, and they are not Yirai Shomayim, doesn't that make their shechted meat treif?
|MODERATOR||Posted - 21 July 2003 19:38
There are sevral factions in Lubavitch - they call them Meshichisten, Elohisten (Im not kidding), and antis. And within each group the beliefs are so convoluted and confused that theyre rarly sure of what they themselves hold. But if someone belives that the Rebbe is Hashem in a body or that he is doing Mitzvos because the Rebbe said to do them, or various other idolatrous beliefs that are fuond among the Lubavithcers, then for sure they are idol worshippers. Gedolei Haposkim have already said this. But even non-idolatrous beliefs can still be simply stupid or against the Torah, or both. Just because someone is NOT an idol worshipper does not mean that his beliefs are in accordance with the Torah.
|proud2bfrum||Posted - 22 July 2003 22:18
I grew up in a small Lubavitch community. My family became Ba'al Teshuva through a small Lubavitch community. Until about two years ago that was the only Yiddishkeit I knew. In the small Lubavitch community where I grew up, there is only a Jewish school until 8th grade. When it was time for me to apply to high school I expirienced first hand warped Lubavitch politics. Because of many things that were completely irrelevant to who I am I could not get accepted into any Lubavitch high school besides for one that taught practically no secular studies. B"H for this oppurtunity, because since I left this community, I saw the ridiculousness of what had been going on. I was finally not right in it and actually had an outsiders view. I think it's pretty safe to say that I will b"n never join that world again.
First off, I'd like to say that saying that the Rebbe was mekarev so many people is NOT a proof at all of his greatness. Not only for the above reasons, but do you know how many people the Lubavitch movement pushed further away from Yiddishkeit? I was at the rally for Israel in Washington DC last year with my school and there were Lubavitchers setting up stands and giving out literature about the Rebbe. A few Israeli chiloni men started chatting in Hebrew, curious, I began to listen. The gist of their conversation was to ridicule these "dati'im" and how crazy they are. They were grouping all dati'im together when they saw these nutcases with their pamphlets. Think that it was just that time and it doesn't happen often? Well that's not true, I've seen it SO many times!
About that pamphlet, I'm sure you are all curious to now what it was that disgusted me so much. Well, I grabbed one of these booklets and let me share with you some of the things written.
On the cover there is a MASSIVE picture of the Rebbe and next to it it says:
Does anyone see anything wrong with that?
On the first page, in big letters it says, "The Rebbe approves our acceptance of him as KING MOSHIACH"
How could he? Instead of admonishing this woman for proclaiming him Moshiach, he readily accepts it, therefore supporting it.
Underneath it there is a large block of text and part of that is the story behind the picture.
Wow! It takes someone of minimal intelligence to figure out that what happened was completely inappropriate!
There is so much more to this booklet, and I will i"yH post more from it later on.
There is something else I would like to say. The Rebbe's kiruv was absolutely neccesary to keeping Lubavitch alive for the following resons:
So I have much much much much more to say, but I don't have a lot of time to say it. I will Iy"H try to continue posting.
P.S. Anyone who wants to say that I am not expirienced, I don't know what I am talking about, or I'm just jealous, don't forget I'm a former Lubavitcher turned vehement MISNAGID.
Click Here To Close Thread, Administrators & Moderators Only.
Show All Forums | Post Reply