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taz Posted - 16 July 2008 15:32
(Disclaimer-- I believe in the Torah and its truth, but I do not believe it can be proven.)

I found this to be extremely enlightening:

http://mwiner.wordpress.com/2008/01/22/the-kuzari-proof-3-million-witnesses-can-be-wrong/

Here is the complete text of the article (the numbers in parentheses refer to the article's footnotes):

The Kuzari Proof is a famous proof of the validity of Judaism and is commonly used in outreach programs to convince estranged Jews to return to the fold of observance. (1) It was developed originally by the 11th century poet Yehuda Halevi as a response to the loss of Judaism’s monopoly on monotheism. It was designed specifically to prove that the Jews had a unique theological gift: the direct and public revelation of God to all the ancient Israelites at Mt. Sinai. (2) In recent years, the ‘proof’ has been offered as a proof of many things. Most commonly it attempts to prove: the existence of God, His revelation to the ancient Israelites at Sinai, His authorship of the Torah, and the resulting inerrancy of the Torah. My purpose is not to argue for or against the veracity of any of the above claims, but instead to show why the Kuzari proof is not a proof of any of them. Part of the search for truth entails the culling out of implausible options. It is my hope that the de-legitimization of the Kuzari proof will lead the observant and the secular alike to come closer to the truth.

The Kuzari ‘proof’ has been proffered in several forms and incarnations but the gist is as follows:
1) 3 million Jews witnessed the revelation of God at Sinai. (3)
2) Starting with the witnessing generation, one generation has told the story to the next, leading us, in the current generation, to be inductive witnesses to this event.
3) It is impossible to fake a large public event and its subsequent intergenerational transmission (with inferred acceptance) as described in steps 1 and 2, thus the original event must have happened.
It would seem to be common sense that events with many witnesses cannot be faked. However, history has taught us that many who have invoked ‘common sense’ have been frustrated by how rare indeed a sense it is. Needless to say, I find many problems with this ‘proof’. I will take each in sequential order.

First, I address the ‘3 million Jews witnessed the revelation’ claim. In logical discourse, one cannot assume what one is trying to prove. You cannot assume that the Torah is inerrant in order to prove that it is inerrant. The 3 million figure (or 600,000 adult males to be more precise) comes from the Torah. (4) One cannot use this figure then, to prove that there were 3 million witnesses to an event which then makes the Torah inerrant. To do so is to construct a tautological proof, or in lay terms… a self-validating statement. The statement “if it rains, it will be raining” is syntactically valid, but is semantically meaningless, in that it is tautological. The proof of the inerrancy of the Torah cannot be made by using statements that require the Torah to be inerrant. In short, we do not know, independent of the Torah claim, that there were 3 million witnesses at Sinai, hence the proof falls apart right there.

Next we look at the ‘witnessed the revelation of God at Sinai’ part of the first statement. As I can recall from my Hebrew school days, the voice of God at Sinai was so powerful it could ‘tear the soul from your body’. I also remember descriptions of smoke and fire similar to the poor Technicolor animations of the DeMille classic depicting the same. (5) Now Joan Rivers has a voice that in my mind can tear the soul out of my body as she as she squawks and screeches about the stars’ fashions at the Oscars. I am in no particular hurry to worship Joan Rivers nor Cecil B. DeMille. What I mean to get across comedically is that special effects capable of being produced cheaply these days by Industrial Light and Magic and the good folks over at Lucasfilm hardly proves God for me. A simple retort might be “but no one believes the fantastic stories and special effects of today to be true”. Tell that to the people who suffered mass panic and hysteria at the radio transmission of Welles’ “The War of The Worlds” in the 1938. (6) In summation, as we build here, for statement 1, we have 3 million unproved witnesses witnessing something they say was fiery, scary and spoke with a loud voice. If one were to tell a Kuzari adherent of UFO sightings, they would likely start to ask questions as to what other explanations could explain this phenomenon: why not here too? (7)

Now we look at statement 2, specifically at the part which says: starting with the witnessing generation, we have an unbroken chain of transmission. The ’starting with the witnessing generation’ part is key. It says that it is impossible to get a generation (a large group of people) to accept anything as an accurate account of history which was not known to be an accurate account history. Yet when you poke a Kuzari adherent for proof of the Israelites’ slavery in Egypt you quickly get this response: “The Egyptians did not record their defeats.” ( 8) Well hang on a second here, does not that suggest that the Egyptians published a history and the greater than 3 million Egyptians that read it accepted it as true even though they knew it was untrue? (9) So can you cause multitudes to accept a false history or not? Which is it? The answer cannot be, if we are to have a sensible conversation, yes in the case of the Egyptians and no in the case of the Israelites. It also cannot be the answer that the Egyptians were embarrassed by defeat and thus motivated to accept the faked history because we cannot know if the Israelites also were not embarrassed by some historical event and thus were motivated to accept a revised history of unique divine revelation. Recall, we cannot assume the Torah as an accurate account of history to prove that the Torah is an accurate account of history. Keeping our eye on the ball, it is NOT the issue here whether or not there were slaves in Egypt, nor is it the issue as to what the actual history of the region was. The issue is that you cannot, at once, claim that you both can and cannot cause a large number of people to accept a false history. The Kuzari proof and discussions of the Kuzari proof are fraught with these sorts of asymmetric applications of explanatory logic. You cannot suck and blow from the same explanatory pipe at the same time.

Next we address statement 3, the inerrancy and incorruptibility of generational transmission of this revelation. Note: this statement is really just a summation of points 1 and 2 where the true Kuzari argument rests. Many people have accused the Torah of suffering from ‘broken telephone’ transmission. The orthodox authorities have correctly retorted that they have proof, archaeological no less, that the Torah has shifted perhaps 2 or 3 letters at most during all of its transmission. Parenthetically, for those keeping score and who just noted an asymmetrical application of explanatory logic, a gold star to you. You correctly noted that all of the sudden archaeology IS an acceptable proof that the Torah has not changed through the generations, yet archaeology IS NOT acceptable as proof that there were not Israelites in Egypt.

If the Torah did not significantly change over they centuries, which is a statement I will accept due to archaeological supporting evidence, the question becomes: why would any people accept the Torah as history, as the ancient Israelites seemed to, if its contents (the description of the revelation at Sinai) were not known to be true? In typical rabbinic style, let me answer a question with a question: Why would the multitudes that accepted the Gospels as gospel, accept them unless they knew somehow that Jesus had indeed miraculously fed the multitudes fish and loaves of bread as the gospels describe? (10) “After the people saw the miraculous sign that Jesus did, they began to say, ‘Surely this is the Prophet who is to come into the world.’ ” (John 6:14) (11) The problem here exists in yet another asymmetrical application of explanatory logic. If you cannot pervert a generational transmission of a miraculous event, then adherents to the Kuzari proof must by definition, accept that Jesus fed the multitudes by miracle. To be clear, I am not saying whether Jesus fed the multitudes or not, nor am I proving or disproving a revelation at Sinai, I am simply saying that the evidence of cultural widespread acceptance of an event as a miracle cannot be the proof of Judaism because it proves antithetical Jewish and Christian miracles at the same time.

In summation we see that the Kuzari proof is a failed proof because of fundamental flaws in logic. The two main fundamental flaws are assuming that which is trying to be proved and asymmetrical uses of explanatory logic at the convenience of the argument. The Kuzari proof is an attempt to prove the divine revelation at Sinai which, in turn, is a cornerstone of Jewish faith. (12) For the orthodox that appear vexed at the decline of Judaism, the message is clear: The rest of us will accept what you have to say when you provide cogent proof. The Kuzari proof is not cogent and the burden of proof is on you.

MODERATOR Posted - 16 July 2008 16:02
The article you cited is silly.

Nobody is proving the Torah from the Torah. The proof goes like this:

Statement: The ancestors of the Jews - a few million of them - received the Torah on Har Sinai

#1) Statement is contained in the Torah
#2) Jews have believed Statement, unanimously, for thousands of years without dissenting opinion on record, at least as far back as the days of Dovid HaMelech, only 400 years after Statement allegedly happened - and even earlier.
#2) If Statement is false, then:
#2a) Statement was concocted by humans, i.e. someone at some point in time told the Jewish nation that Statement is true, i.e. that their ancestors all received the Torah on Har Sinai
#3) If #2a is true then logic - as well as experience regarding hoaxes throughout history - that #2 cannot be true.
#4) But since #2 is true, then Statement cannot be false, as per #2 above.
#5) Since Statement cannot be false, it is proven True.


The part that this guy is missing is #3 -- that it is not logical to say that someone can tell millions of people, in this case the Jews, that there was a public revelation to their direct ancestors at Har Sinai a few hundred years ago that nobody knows about except whoever it is that is making up the story, without anyone questioning how come nobody knows about this. Not only is there no questioners on record, but even those with a motive to question - such as Christians etc - did not. This shows how strong #2 is.

Matisyohu28 Posted - 17 July 2008 18:11
To sum up - they just say what frei people say all the time about how we're trying to use the torah to prove it.
This is a joke, and I will explain why:
You got this from a blogger, who are in general(with few exceptions) a bunch of frei, degenerate atheists or functional-atheists, who rant on and on about controversial issues in torah judaism without giving you authentic jeiwsh thought - only their sick thoughts, which come from their negius.

Why were tyou researching something like this online? You say you believe the torah to be true - this idea, in the kuzari, is brought down in the sefer hachinuch, it's not like some new thing we thought of to be mekarev people. Plus, torah without proof is not real emunah - emunah means a recognition of UNDERSTADING, not faith.
We're not christians. We dont believe blindly.

Now, on to this blogger joker -

He thinks this way because every other religion uses their own books to prove themselves, or attemtp to.
Christians say"look at our miracles, they were incredible!"

Muslims say "look at our miracles, they were incredible!"

Yet, the only source for the miracles is their own books. Now this is the basis the blogger goes on, which shows how he simply is grouping torah together with other religions in his small-mindedness - this should already expose him for the am haaretz/laitz that he is, at least to you, since you say you learn torah.

He misses the point entirely - there's something in religion studies called applewhite theorum. It goes like this (thanks to Rav Leib Kelleman for the info) There was this guy who started a ew religious cults, named applewhite; he ended up having a group of college-educated, master's degree carrying men and women, be mesares themselves(dismemberment of the aiver), wear a certain type of shoes, and kill themselves as a way to get on the starship that was to take them to some planet that they think is olam haba.

He videotaped his group's mass-suicide, and before killing himself, he said "boy, what fools!" standing over a room full of dead bodies, all was caught on tape.

Now, why dont you think anyone say him for what he was? Simple. His lie was impossible to check - if anyone asked him how he knew this, he would say "because I'm a prophet, duh, now go kill yourself or else you'll burn in hell"

He and he alone knows for real that he is not a prophet, why? because he claimed no national, or mass revelation or miracles. No religion in history has claimed mass miracles, or revelation, becauyse they cannot. It's a matter of believing in their messsenger, either buddha, muhammed, jesus, or any of the undreds of other false prophets.

Not so with us. We say, in our torah, "shoel avicha" - ask your father and he will tell you. Tell you what? Your father was at sinai, and so he told you, as well as the other fathers who were there who told their children. It also says that this book will never be forgotten, so the idea that it came later and someone forged it was foreseen by the torah, and it is illogical(this was a huge argument of the bible critics for decades, they missed the obvious)

This arrogant blogger equates national revelation, national miracles that were witnesses by millions of people, all of which we claim, were left alive and healthy, whose histoties are complete without gap, who testify with their immense knowledge of the torah that it was not fabricated(goyim called us a nation of philosophers, all constantly involved with divinity, since they saw us learning torah all day during the first galus) Now try to go to a group of torah scholars, a nation of them, before there were am haratzim, and tell them that 3 million heard g-d speak - Good luck!

Other religions claim the sheep analogy - a leader comes and leads with an iron fist, without rebellion, making them all follow laws.

We claim, that a nation of stiff-knecked(moshe calls us this many times) people, left egypt with one leader who studdered(why would we say that about ou leader, when no other nation would say such a thing{the leader was always a mean guy who would have beheaded any such insult} and why would we say all of our shortcomings, all of our sins, moshe's sin, etc..no nation in history talks about their downfalls like us, because we were impeccably honest), people rebelled against him, and he faced them down INTELLECTUALLY, without himself doing anything against them with his own hands, he taught the entire nation torah, which no one in their right mind would do if they were making something up, because if the entire people know as much as moshe..it would take away from his kovod{why would we say that bilaam had a higher level of nevuah than moshe - we're putting down our leader! unless of course, it was true..same thing with the gemora that all of klal yisroel were raised to the level near moshe at har sinai - if we followed the rules of other religions, we would never be able to reach moshe or anywhere near him, since in chrsitianity, yushke is god, and no one can be god, right? muhammed is some violent maniac who kills all the infidels, etc.., and no one can appraoch them - here, we say to question your leaders, learn from them through asking questions! what religion says to ask questions!! the differences between our torah and the nations of the world are so great I have not even begun, but this apikores or am haaretz, whoever he is, has no idea of anything i just said, and he just hears a proof, which he in his little mind associates with other religions..making him come to absurd conclusions, stemming from a total lack of torah knowledge, or knowledge of human nature. unless you take the full package of torah and all it entails, it's dificult to unerstand the proofs.

Mussar teaches you how to live. But learning bava kama is living! - Rav Avigdor Miller ZT'L

taon Posted - 24 July 2008 17:14
<<(Disclaimer-- I believe in the Torah and its truth, but I do not believe it can be proven.)>> It can be. It has been since the need first arose. No one can say they know better than all those people.

<<http://REMOVED>>
How did this link get through? the internet is full of nonsense trash, but it soncinces people. leave this alone.

<<It was developed originally by the 11th century poet Yehuda Halevi as a response to the loss of Judaism’s monopoly on monotheism.>>
What does the so called loss of monoply have to do with this proof? And he diidnt create it, its just known best in the format in his sefer and is named after that now.
<<Most commonly it attempts to prove: the existence of God, His revelation to the ancient Israelites at Sinai, His authorship of the Torah, and the resulting inerrancy of the Torah.>> one of many proofs. just a mor popular one.
<< Part of the search for truth entails the culling out of implausible options. It is my hope that the de-legitimization of the Kuzari proof will lead the observant and the secular alike to come closer to the truth.>>
No, that part of the search involves research and trying to understand what is correct. This includes asking. Here the author is clearly telling. Thats just speading his own nonsense, he didint look into this, did he ask one of his questions? right here he says he disproved it. Says he did, not that he may have and now has a major kasha. Because of course, no one until now has had the ability and motivation to think this over and examine it.


<<It would seem to be common sense that events with many witnesses cannot be faked. However, history has taught us that many who have invoked ‘common sense’ have been frustrated by how rare indeed a sense it is. >> 'Pot calling kettle. You're black. Over.' And what does this have to do with anything? he's saying it's common sense but that there really isnt much common sense so... what are you saying now? there is no logic here. Only insults to the basic intellligences of all of Klall Yisroel. Until that last part, where he seems to be saying it i not us who lack the sense.

<<The 3 million figure (or 600,000 adult males to be more precise) comes from the Torah.>> 3 million. It's common sense that there were people besides men between twenty and sixty. And theres proof from other sources, like the beloved archaeology. How could a couple dozen people conquer 31 nations and then say they are much much bigger than anyone can see?

<<In short, we do not know, independent of the Torah claim, that there were 3 million witnesses at Sinai, hence the proof falls apart right there.>> Yes, we do. No, it doesnt. To say otherwise returns us to the insane hoax problem. cant be ppassed off.

<< As I can recall from my Hebrew school days>> Thereby admitting an unfortunate lack of education, and the lack of research that went into this.

<<special effects capable of being produced cheaply these days by Industrial Light and Magic and the good folks over at Lucasfilm hardly proves God for me.>> 1 there wasnt much in regards to special effects then 2 miracles arent ever used as proof in Judaism 3 brain-dead tv viewwers (watching tv does lower your brain's functioning considerably) versus something beyond anything possible even today, witnessed live, by people known throughout history to question everything...no comparision 4 We accepted the Torah becuase we knew Hashem is G-d, and the Torah is true. It wasnt a matter of light shows. WHy else would we be convinced?

<< Tell that to the people who suffered mass panic and hysteria at the radio transmission of Welles’ “The War of The Worlds” in the 1938.>> Thats even more proof, becuase peo;le went out and saw in was not true before the broadcast was through. Yes, many panicked and believed it...but for how long? Anyone still believe it?
<<In summation, as we build here, for statement 1, we have 3 million unproved witnesses witnessing something they say was fiery, scary and spoke with a loud voice.>> No we didint say that. And what you mean we?

<<If one were to tell a Kuzari adherent of UFO sightings, they would likely start to ask questions as to what other explanations could explain this phenomenon: why not here too?>> Forget the lights! they are not the point! And they would ask cause we are skeptica, stiff-necked people. We dont accept things that quick. Also, wed need the logic behind it. So, a few million Jews and billions of oothers from other nations believe in Har Sinai without a doubt, a few groups of nutters worship aliens. and they are clearly nuts. Cults tend to be. And dangerous, and unthinking (poisoned kool-aid bring back any memories?)

DOn't know if it's worth it for me to go into the rest, Especially since this was already answered, but I might if i have time.

taon

questions? go here:

www.frumteens.com/forum.php?forum_id=65

MODERATOR Posted - 25 July 2008 14:14
I'm reposting the July 16th post - the summary of this proof - because it had a numerical typo (#2 was there twice, which messes up the count):

Statement: The ancestors of the Jews - a few million of them - received the Torah on Har Sinai

#1) Statement is contained in the Torah
#2) Jews have believed Statement, unanimously, for thousands of years without dissenting opinion on record (at least as far back as the days of Dovid HaMelech, only 400 years after Statement allegedly happened - and even earlier).
#3) If Statement is false, then:
#3a) Statement was concocted by humans, i.e. someone at some point in time told the Jewish nation that Statement is true, i.e. that their ancestors all received the Torah on Har Sinai
#4) If #3a is true then logic - as well as experience regarding hoaxes throughout history - tells us that that #2 cannot be true.
#5) But since #2 is true, then Statement cannot be false, as per #3 above.
#6) Since Statement cannot be false, it is proven True.

Matisyohu28 Posted - 27 July 2008 14:56
he is a very insulting person..this blogger has no idea what judaism is, what the proof is, or even what it is trying to prove. He has not answered one of the factors that prove the torah's divinity, he has only used vague, secular analogies that further show his lack of knowledge - UFO's being compared to nationwide nevuah and hearing G-d speak? please..and as far as special effects go, does he know the rashi that says that trhe shofar began at the maximum level that the ear can tolerate, and then went louder from there - the opposite of how a man would blow(when people blow a shofar, the sound gets lower, due to lack of breath) - this is clearly something not possible, even in star wars - plus, consider the fact that everyone who saw star wars knew it was a movie, i.e, it was on a screen!! no one saw those cray lights and effects in person, it was all just camera work - on the set, it's just a green screen and a guy walking arund in ping-ping balls strapped to his body.

And you're going to compare that to maamad har sinai!!?? this guy is insane.

Mussar teaches you how to live. But learning bava kama is living! - Rav Avigdor Miller ZT'L

mc Posted - 17 August 2008 21:24
Mod, how would you respond to the following point brought up by the initial post? I am struggling to come up with an answer for myself on this.

Now we look at statement 2, specifically at the part which says: starting with the witnessing generation, we have an unbroken chain of transmission. The ’starting with the witnessing generation’ part is key. It says that it is impossible to get a generation (a large group of people) to accept anything as an accurate account of history which was not known to be an accurate account history. Yet when you poke a Kuzari adherent for proof of the Israelites’ slavery in Egypt you quickly get this response: “The Egyptians did not record their defeats.” ( 8) Well hang on a second here, does not that suggest that the Egyptians published a history and the greater than 3 million Egyptians that read it accepted it as true even though they knew it was untrue?

u gotta try Posted - 17 August 2008 21:24
guys i dont understand. i hope this doesnt come out wrong but we always say that judaism encourages questions and wants u to ask, but then wen someone asks he gets ATTACKED for how little jewish education he has, how he doesnt know wat he's talking abt, calling him laitz and am haaretz. why cant we just give him the answers that he needs and keep our personal opinions out of it? how does it help to say all those things? its just gona make it impossible for him to accept wat ur saying even it wat ur saying is true. i dont know maybe im wrong and your really mechuyav to put down someone who says something against the torah or wtvr but then how does that encourage questions? i had a question on something someone said here but now im like scared to ask it cz everyone will think im an apikores or something. your entitled to your personal opinions but putting other ppl down never helps anyone grow. so PLEEZE cud we just give ppl the answers they desperately need in this crazy confusing world and leave out the namecalling?


p.s. PLZ be mochel if this came out wrong i TOTALLY didnt mean it in a bad way im just trying to understand! thnx

taon Posted - 22 August 2008 19:28
u gotta try- whoever wrote this article wasnt asking, he was insulting. He means to mock the Torah and destroy Jewish neshamos. No way anyone can stand for that. If he wants to know, thats another thing, he'd be welcome to ask.

mc- first, there were records. just not official ones. second, the same happened in most ancient civilizations, and many not so ancient ones, famously the U.S.S.R. People didint believ it, they were forced by the leaders to go by it. if they did belive it, it would be becuase they were never told the truth, only propoganda. And that hyas never lasted. the truth always comes out. For you egyptian example, there were found 1 private records 2 archaological evidence 3 excuses from thhe egyptians and later"historians" who hated us and supported the egyptians (for example, attempts to explain the sudden loss of slaves and the subsequent establishment of a nation from said slaves included the claim that we were all lepers and cast out).

taon

questions? go here:

www.frumteens.com/forum.php?forum_id=65

Matisyohu28 Posted - 22 August 2008 19:28
ugottatry - yiou're 100% right, when it comes to a person who wants to learn and who is asking questions because he wants to learn.

This person, as is evident from his writing style and overall sarcasm, is mocking torah and G-d - we are free to call it what it is; laitzonus, and am haratzus at best, apikorsus at worst.


this blogger, or whoever he is, did not write like an honest person - he did not state a question, he dismissed miracles, and national revelation, he minimized torah by comparing it to a television show, and I will not go into further detail because his piece was so ridiculous and amateur that i dont think even apikorsim would take it seriously.

Mussar teaches you how to live. But learning bava kama is living! - Rav Avigdor Miller ZT'L

taon Posted - 25 August 2008 17:51
Part 2:
<<Yet when you poke a Kuzari adherent for proof of the Israelites’ slavery in Egypt you quickly get this response: “The Egyptians did not record their defeats.”>>
I already answered this above. But you would probably be told that there were records, just not in the pharohs' war books. Or at least, that there are records and pictures that people from around the area of what was then canaan were slaves in egypt (there are paintings of such found), then a lot of strange bad things started happening, inclding dieases, animals all over, strange storms, lack of food due to certain disasters, etc., many deaths, then egypt fell as a major power for hundreds of years, and those "hebrews" seemed to have disappeared. Yeah, it was known and recorded. and we have records. if the ruling class and noblemen didint want to mention it, or wanted to make p ridiculous and contradictory excuses, thats nothing new. ever hear of holocaust denial? Or how the soviet union tried to cover up everything they did to the world, and even covered up to each other (stalin yeamach shemo's death was at first reported as him merely feeling unwell, until they could no longer cover his absence).
<<So can you cause multitudes to accept a false history or not?>> you can make them belive a lot of things...for a period of time. the truth always does come out. especially with a certian stubborn, stiff-necked, sceptical people...

<<It also cannot be the answer that the Egyptians were embarrassed by defeat and thus motivated to accept the faked history>>
It was done all the time. thats whyforeign or private historians are usually relied upon for records of ancient history instead of that country's own records.

<<because we cannot know if the Israelites also were not embarrassed by some historical event>>
Has this guy learnt anything? ever? The Torah is filled with our worst times recorded for eternity and even 'exaggerated' according to the greatness of those people. Ditto chazal, religious writers, etc . etc. in 3000n years, only emes. come on now.

<<and thus were motivated to accept a revised history of unique divine revelation.>>
Oh yeah, that's a sensible coverup.

<<Recall, we cannot assume the Torah as an accurate account of history to prove that the Torah is an accurate account of history.>>
yeah yeah we heard you the first time. we replied, and just to make you happy, we wont.

<<Keeping our eye on the ball, it is NOT the issue here whether or not there were slaves in Egypt, nor is it the issue as to what the actual history of the region was.>>
Then why'd you have to go on and on about it? why doesnt it mean anything? aside from it answering your questions, i mean.

<<The issue is that you cannot, at once, claim that you both can and cannot cause a large number of people to accept a false history.>>
So don't we didn't, you did.

<<You cannot suck and blow from the same explanatory pipe at the same time.>>
you actually can, all cases not being the same, but you have already done it so who are you to talk?

taon

questions? go here:

www.frumteens.com/forum.php?forum_id=65

MODERATOR Posted - 25 August 2008 17:53
That and event should happen and people stop talking about it and it eventualyl gets forgotten - like Egyptan defeats - thats nto a big deal; it happens. But that an event should NOT have happened, and suddenly everyone shoudl proactively agree that it did - liek Kabbalas HaTorah - that cannot happen.
taon Posted - 01 September 2008 17:27
last part:
<<Many people have accused the Torah of suffering from ‘broken telephone’ transmission.>>
Then proven wrong, and most are no longer taken seriously.

<<The orthodox authorities have correctly retorted that they have proof, archaeological no less, that the Torah has shifted perhaps 2 or 3 letters at most during all of its transmission.>>
Not even that much of a difference (I belive there was a hey instead of an aleph from a community which started small and isolated so they didint have other Sifrei Torah to check with. Something like that. It might be here somewhere. Anyway, nothing that makes any difference, and that was relatively recently). And archaeology is just one area of proof of this, we have much more, such as millenia long seperations of groups of Jews and each having the same Torah, and historical proofs, and lots more.

<<Parenthetically, for those keeping score and who just noted an asymmetrical application of explanatory logic, a gold star to you.>>
Ooh, big words AND a gold star. Should I desisit from continuing in face of such vocabulary? And next time you want to make a side point, actually put it in parenthesis, don't make it a main subject.

<<You correctly noted that all of the sudden archaeology IS an acceptable proof that the Torah has not changed through the generations, yet archaeology IS NOT acceptable as proof that there were not Israelites in Egypt.>>
No wonder Rav Moderator put sighs in so often, it's hard not to when we've all gone through this so many times already. You made the baseless claim of hypocrisy, we said no such thing.

<<If the Torah did not significantly change over they centuries, which is a statement I will accept due to archaeological supporting evidence,>>
Now who's using a double standard? Yeah, still him. I feel sorry for you, article writer. I know you really have more seichel than this, you just buried under mishmash and excuses.

<<the question becomes: why would any people accept the Torah as history, as the ancient Israelites seemed to, if its contents (the description of the revelation at Sinai) were not known to be true?>>
Again, that's not the sole line of reasoning, there are plenty of other questions I could ask at this point. but fine, we'll go with this example.

<< In typical rabbinic style>>
Aguing with yourself is kinds sorta like the style of learning...just a different kind of arguing with yourselrf....

<<Why would the multitudes that accepted the Gospels as gospel, accept them unless they knew somehow that Jesus had indeed miraculously fed the multitudes fish and loaves of bread as the gospels describe?>>
You don't know how christianity and the "new testament" developed, do you? I don't know all of it, so I wont explain becuase i'll likely have parts of it incorrect, but such acceptance ddin't really happen like that. Nor is everything about yoshka believed even up to today, even by their leaders, as has been discussed many times.

<< If you cannot pervert a generational transmission of a miraculous event, then adherents to the Kuzari proof must by definition, accept that Jesus fed the multitudes by miracle.>>
Besides everything above, these are completely seperate things. the case you are mentioning was a minor trick (yoshka did, in fact, leave to learn magic, we know through his teachers, it as either him or someone close to him i dont remeber exactly but i think it was him) supposedly done in front of a small group of the lowest of the low (even most am haaretzim didin't follow him), added by someone who likely didint know him, as most writers of the nt came later, with no chain of transmission whatsoever.


<<In summation we see that the Kuzari proof is a failed proof because of fundamental flaws in logic.>>
I havent seen it yet. Taz, did you somehow accidentally leave out a section of this? becuase i still dont see it, and i read it over a few times.

<<For the orthodox that appear vexed at the decline of Judaism>>
the "decline of Judaism has been predicted since i don't know how far back, i contastly hear of it having been mentioned in all time periods, never happened, never will. Who exactly is vexed about this? You don't see our gedolim having meetings about such a decline.

<< The rest of us will accept what you have to say when you provide cogent proof.>>
No one's trying to convert here. And we do have proof, you are merely deperate to try to ignore it.

<<the burden of proof is on you.>>
What do i have to prove to you? I believe, i know, i have no need to prove anything. ditto with all of us, we have nothing to prove. Your "the rest of us" might, but we dont.

taon

questions? go here:

www.frumteens.com/forum.php?forum_id=65

history Posted - 16 September 2008 11:53
taz

(Disclaimer-- I believe in the Torah and its truth, but I do not believe it can be proven.)

then why do you believe?

MODERATOR Posted - 16 September 2008 12:09
<<taz: Disclaimer-- I believe in the Torah and its truth, but I do not believe it can be proven.>>

People believe all sorts of things, but your second statement of belief - that the Torah cannot be proven - is Emunah Peshutah, without any basis.

But it's even not even Emunah Peshutah - because although Emunah Peshutah means belief in something even if it has nto been proven, it does not mean to believe something that has been disproven, and your Emunah that the Torah cannot be proven has been disproven.

And whereas the Emunah peshutah of the truth of the Torah has a Mesorah to support it - a tradition all the way back to Har Sinai that tells us it is true - your second statement of Emunah Peshutah - that the Torah cannot be proven - has a Mesorah against it as all our seforim tell us differently.

And until you find some fault with the proofs - including the Kuzari proof that you tried to poke a hole in and could not, as described all over this forum - your belief that the Torah cannot be proven goes against your own objective intellectual observations.


Matisyohu28 Posted - 16 June 2009 18:17
Underneath all the ignorance this writer spews, there was one interesting question he asks - our proof is based on the fact that there's no heicha timsa, no possible way the torah could have been forged - but he seems to suggest such a heicha timsa - that the beis din or someone cv's tried to force people to believe in kabalas hatorah after the fact. Such a thing, if done would cause a tremendous backlash(what? you said my ancestors worshipped idols at har sinai?(golden calf), and opposition(it says shoel avicha, i asked my father, and he never heard of it!) To add on to taon's answer, that the truth would eventually come out, you dont even have to say that - why would anyone in their right mind try to tell a nation of people something so easy to protest against? the people rebelled for much less things, and the idol worshippers never once said kabalas hatorah didnt happen - menasheh, achav, the biggest reshoim never once questioned kabalas hatorah or yetzias mitzrayim, there was never a schism between the believers and the non-believers, as one would expect - it would have been impossible to carry out such edicts, to believe in kabalas hatorah, since they didnt have armies like they have today to check up on everyone, plus people could ahve easily lied and told the govt yes, and their children no, and organized a resistance - in the soviet union, no one today believes the lies they fed people, because the people knew it was false, they were just waiting for the opportunity to be free to speak out - so, the jewish people's opportunity to speak out would have been at the churbna, when..no one spoke out, even though they were totally free to, and even though many spoke out against the rabbis,(like josephus), they never questioned kabalas hatorah - and holocaust deniers are more of a political entity than anything else, they just want to try to argue with zionists by taking away what they see as their sympathy card(this is of course ludicrous, as the biggest anti-zionist gedolim attested to the holocuast(like the satmar rov), predicted it, and indeed perished r"l in it, like reb elchonon).

Mussar teaches you how to live. But learning bava kama is living! - Rav Avigdor Miller ZT'L

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