Anything about JUDAISM
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bolo Posted - 12 May 2008 16:40
Recently in Israel there was a psak from the rabbis that a certain Bais Din's Geirim are not valid because he was converting them without accepting Mitzvos. If i know of a convert that's not religious, does that mean his conversion is invalid?
MODERATOR Posted - 12 May 2008 16:48
Not necessarily.

In order for a conversion to be valid, it has to be performed by a legitimate Bais Din, and the convert must accept upon himself a commitment to fuflil the Torah, i.e. to be fully and completely religious.

If that commitment was made sincerely, then even if subsequently somewhere down the road he decided to become not religious his conversion was valid and he is jewish, but not frum.

If however, his being not religious is because he was never sincere about it to begin with, then his conversion was not valid.

There is one real shitah that I know of among the achronim that holds that a conversion is valid even without acceptance of Mitzvos. However, the halachah is not like him. Therefore, if you have a convert who did not accept mitzvos, you may treat him 100% non-Jewish, you can cause him to be mechalel shabbos, eat treif, et al, with no safek at all.

(Because the halachah is that without commitment to mitzvos a conversion is not valid, I am not going to mention the achron who differs. The halachah is not like him, and I do nto want people to abuse this shitah by using it as an excuse to validate invalid conversions.)

E6M1E3S Posted - 09 June 2009 20:50
BS"D
Someone told me that if a person converted before the age of 18 and decided that he didn't want to be frum anymore before the age of 21, then he's not Jewish.
If this info is wrong, please tell me and correct me!
taon Posted - 16 June 2009 18:17
I don't know anything about that, but someone who wasn't born Jewish and their family converted or they were adopted by Jews is supposed to undergo a finalization geirus to become fully Jewish, and can refuse. Maybe thats what was meant?

taon

questions? go here:

www.frumteens.com/forum.php?forum_id=65

LchapesEmes Posted - 16 June 2009 18:17
Absolutely incorrect. If a person was converted by a beis din before the age of 13 (male) or 12 (female), and they either cease to keep the mitzvos before their bar/bas mitzvah, or at some point up until they are informed that they were converted (if it happened before they could remember), then the halacha is that retroactively they were never Jewish. If they keep the mitzvos stam, then it is the opinion of most poskim to my knowledge that at no point after their bar mitzvah can they revert to non-Jewish status. Rav Elyashiv paskened on a 17-year-old boy who was completely off the derech, and had stopped keeping mitzvos at some earlier point without knowing that he was converted as a child - that he is absolutely not Jewish. This is the fraction of a percent of cases; many poskim in fact strongly disapprove of giving a converted child living with frum parents any sort of "option" of reverting to gentile status. I welcome any corrections or additions.
Matisyohu28 Posted - 29 June 2009 20:33
The age of daas(age of consent?) is 13. This is when a person, according to the torah, is mentally mature to make the decision to convert(this applies acorss the board, in business deals, and all kinds of things). If someone converted before the age of 13, al daas beis din(which means the beis din officiaited his conversion as a koton, or minor, then he must make an independent commitment at 13 - the poskim say that his actions at 13 will reveal to us what his new daas is - in other words, if he turns 13 and starts eating at mcdonalds, you know he is making a 'machaah', or a protest against his minor-conversion which is considered to have been done without his daas, or his knowledge of it happeneing, since a koton has no daas.

There'sm a huge discussion in the rishonim and achronim about this; the sugya is centered around a gemora in kesubos(daf 13 I think) about ger koton(matbilin oso al daas bes din), they talk about what the boy's status is before 13, is he a goy or yid, etc.., but the immersion in the mikveh and bris he had as a koton is part of his conversion - the three elements combine when he is 13, with his acceptance of the mitzvos, to make him a full-fledge jew.

If he decided belaiv shalem to convert at 13 then it's too late and nothing he does afterward will void the conversion.

Mussar teaches you how to live. But learning bava kama is living! - Rav Avigdor Miller ZT'L

Tzeis Posted - 24 January 2010 21:19
Moderator said: In order for a conversion to be valid, it has to be performed by a legitimate Bais Din
Limadetanu Moderateinu, Tosafos in Shabbos 68a. I will transliterate: (Dibur Hamaschil “Ger”) bifnei shlosha, velo hodiuhu mitzvas shabbos…,” meaning that the gemarah is talking about a proselyte who was converted before three (Jewish males, constituting a bes din), and the bes din didn’t inform the convert of shabbos. What kind of legitimate bes din is that one!?
MODERATOR Posted - 25 January 2010 16:11
See the Gemara Tosafos refers to there (Yevamos 47b). Beis Din does not have to tell a potential ger about every mitzvah beforehand.

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