Anything about JUDAISM
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starfish Posted - 11 February 2003 0:36
G-d is perfect. G-d never needed and never will need anything, rite? well, also.. G-d knows everything. so i would assume that G-d knows what pain feels like. but someone who is in pain, needs to be relived of it. so obviously somethigns wrong..

except that if G-d was never in pain, he cant really understand what it's like.

it's like the king who was never a peasant -
he has no clue what it is to be starving or cold etc..

so he cant really understand what we're going through sometimes.but that can't be..

would u mind clarifying? thanks.

MODERATOR Posted - 11 February 2003 2:13
G-d not only "knows" what pain feels like - since He is knows evertthing - but He is the one who designed, decided, and decreed what pain should feel like!

Nothing happens in this world without G-d's decree. Not a thing. And nobody feels anything unless G-d decides, determines and decreees exactly what that person should feel! If someone feels pain, that is only possible, if G-d decides precisely what type of feeling will be felt.

G-d invented pain. He designed it. It cant happen without Him.

So of course He knows what it feels. He decides what it should feel like!

israel-phile gal Posted - 11 February 2003 2:59
starfish- i think what it is- is that G-d created these emotions, so if s/1 creates s/t, then u know how it runs- hopefully. bill gates- should know his computer stuff- so kal vachomer hakadosh baruch Hu who runs the world. He doesnt have 2 personally experience starvation like the king- b/c he "created" it..i'm not sure if u folllow..let me know..good ques- kol hakavod!
starfish Posted - 06 January 2004 14:09
yes, i understand that G-d knows what pain is, but in reality, He never experienced it.
he was never hurt, or embarresed or angry, or had a headache, or a cut, or was sad, or frustrated, or scared. He's G-d. so really, he cant ever feel what we feel because he will never be human.
i mean , i dont think it's that weird of a thouhgt(others think it is) but sometimes i wish i was G-d because i would never ever have to feel any pain and i'd always be perfect, content, and happy without ever having to work or do anything.
MODERATOR Posted - 06 January 2004 22:22
He doesnt have to feel it, he has to know what it feels like. AND since He is the one who decides what you feel like when you have "pain" - that is, Hashem decrees exactly what you are feeling - He obvisouly knows exactly what it is.
yideleh Posted - 13 January 2004 18:54
I don't get it. If you make something, you know what you're making. So if G-d created pain, why WOULDN'T He know what it was all about?
Punims Posted - 16 January 2004 18:48
<<he was never hurt, or embarresed or angry, or had a headache, or a cut, or was sad, or frustrated, or scared.>>

You're right, He was never hurt or all that - but how does hurt feel to you? Those exact emotions are only there cuz G-d made them up. Without Him, embarrassed, scared, frusterated wouldn't EXIST. Maybe embarrassed could mean you have a headache. Why doesn't frusterated mean you want to dissolve in front of the person in front of you? Cuz that's embarrassment. Who made that feeling go to embarrassement and not the frusterated feeling? G-d. He put all the ingrediants together to create anger, pain.

So you can ask - but how can He KNOW what it feels like? But how can He not? Can G-d make something that He doesn't know? Can G-d not know something?

starfish Posted - 30 January 2004 13:08
ok, so i see what all of u are saying, of course G-d knows what pain feels like but to know something and to KNOw something are 2 different things.

lets see, hmmm. how do i explain exactly the little question going on in my mind, basically if G-d during his entire existance never felt any form of discomfort, exactly the opposite, he experiences and will only experience the most amazing perfect happiness and security possible. than how come he created all these other painful possibilities for us humans? and really G-d can't feel what we're going through at all. i'm pretty sure my last statement was 100% correct.
G-D CANT FEEL WHAT WE'RE GOING THROUGH. it's impossible for him. doesn't that make sense?


ok, so i dont get it , G-d doesn't feel what we feel.

?

MODERATOR Posted - 30 January 2004 13:15
He doesnt "feel" anything, even what we dont feel.

And He is also not limited by the limitations of human knowledge, so while if you "know" something, your knowledge does not include the "sensory perception" (that is the phrase you are looking for) of that item, Hashem's "knowledge" works differently. Hashem doesnt "know" things the way we do. Hashem and His Knowledge are One and the Same. (Please see the "What is G-d?" topic here for an expalanation - this is part of the idea that G-d is kulo pushut).

Tehre is nothgin that G-d is inaware of, or does not perceive. He doesnt "feel" pain, true, but He does not need to "feel" it in order to know what it is, better than we do.

proud2bfrum Posted - 30 January 2004 19:30
If Hashem doesn't know emotiom then how can it say things like "vayichar af" in relation to Hashem? It would be total apikorsus to say that Hashem was angered because anger is an emotional characteristic which is physical and finite, and Hashem is infinite. So what does it mean?

A lot of people say that it says "vayichar af" because its putting it in our own terms. In other words, our anger is real and whatever is happening up in shamayim will get the label of anger because it is the closest thing and that's the only way we will understand it.

My teacher said, "no!" Anger in shamayim is the real thing. It is a spiritual attribute. It is the anger that is in olam hazeh that is fake and we only hae it so that we can understand what goes on "up there."

This can be applied to pain too. Your pain is not real pain, it is a simulation of the spiritual "behavior" which is pain. Does Hashem know pain? Of course, He knows it better than you do!

MODERATOR Posted - 30 January 2004 19:41
Those 'lot of people" you are quoting are the Rambam and company. He states clearly that "anger" is only a moshol where it refers to Hashem, and that our anger is "anger" - Hashem's anger is not only not anger, its not an attribute at all, since Hashem has no attributes, and all it means is that Hashem's actions seem to us as if He were angry. In other words, it makes us feel as though Hashem were angry, but chas v'sholom it doesnt mean Hashem has any emotions.

The Ralbag and the Sheloh and R"Y ibn Tzadik hold the opposite - that what we feel is not "anger" at all, its only a moshol for the anger that Hashem shows.

However, the disagreement here is only in regard to the words - "anger" or "love" or whatever emotion is beign described - what does the world mean literally - what we feel or what Hashem does - and which one is a moshol.

However, nobody - I repeat: nobody - holds that Hashem has any "feelings" whatsoever. Not anger, not love, not pain, nothing. The Ralbag et al also agree that when we say anger in regard to Hashem we are referring to a method that Hashem uses in dealing with this world, NOT a personal emotion.


To say that Hashem actually gets angry makes Hashem into an avodah zorah chas v'sholom for several reasons:

1) It means Hashem changes. Today He wasnt angry and tomorrow He is. But Hashem doesnt change.

2) It means that Hashem is hurt or affected by other things in the universe, when in reality nothgin in the world can impact onm Hashem.

3) SImilar ot the above, by describing emotions to Hashem, you are thereby saying that there are reasons why Hashem will feel one emotion of another. Thus, you are saying that there are boundaries to Hashem, since having one emotion as oppsoed to another is a measurable, quantifiable statment. ANd anythign measurable or quantifiable, or definable in any way, is a limitation.

Nobody, but nobody holds that Hashem actualyl has emotions or feels pain or anger. To say so is the same as saying Hashem c"v has a nose. Both are physical attributes.

bruriaheww Posted - 30 January 2004 22:26
Thanx mod, I always had that q in the back of my mind.
proud2bfrum Posted - 01 February 2004 5:01
<<Hashem has no attributes>>

What about the yud gimmel middos of Hashem?

<<However, nobody - I repeat: nobody - holds that Hashem has any "feelings" whatsoever.>>

Nowhere in my post did I c"v say that Hashem has any emotion!

MODERATOR Posted - 01 February 2004 5:21
The 13 Midos are explained in two possible ways:

(a) they are not attrivutes of Hashem; they merely desribe what we feel like when Hashem acts in certain ways. So when Hashem acts in a way that we feel like He was merciful, we call it Hashems "midah" of mercy, but its not the emotion of mercy at all. It just seems that way to us.

(b) All these are what the Rambam calls "negative attributes". Meaning, they dont tell us what Hashem is, but what He is not. Meaning, "rachum" doesnt mean Hashe is merciful, but rather Hashem is not cruel, and so on. This way, we are learning about Hashem by eliminating wrong ideas about Him. The Rambam says that since Hashem has no attributes and is beyond our understanding, eliminating misunderstandings about Hashem is the best we can do to "know" Him.


Re emoitons. I was not referring to you when I said that; I was refering to your teacher.

proud2bfrum Posted - 02 February 2004 2:52
My teacher didn't c"v say that Hashem has emotions either. I'm not sure where you got that from.
MODERATOR Posted - 02 February 2004 2:57
<<Anger in shamayim is the real thing. It is a spiritual attribute>>

I dont know what a "spiritual attribute" is. Hashem has no attributes.

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