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|qwert||Posted - 13 October 2000 20:30
hashem obviously wants people to chose bad cuz otherwise why would there be such a thing as a yezer hara, and he makes it bigger for tzadikim cuz he wants ppl to turn the wrong way, cuz if he didnt and said take ur medicine this is how u do it and its for ur good there wouldnt be so many probs like there are now
|MODERATOR||Posted - 13 October 2000 20:44
Hashem also gives you a Yetzer Tov, which he would just remove if He wanted you to choose bad. The strength of the Yetzer Tov and Yetzer Horah are always balanced by Hashem so that you are able to choose good if you so choose.
Here's news: Your Yetzer Horah itself wants you to beat it.
Look at your Yetzer Horah not as an unbeatable opponent whose purpose is to beat you but a sparring partner whose purpose is to make you as strong and skilled as possible. It will fight just hard enough to make you put in a good effort, but never too hard for you to win.
And Hashem makes sur that each individual gets the particular sparring partner best suited for his individual needs. In whatever areas you need more training, or have greater potential, that's where your Yetzer Horah will spar with you.
And the stronger you get, the more effort your sparring partner is going to have to exert in order to get you to an even higher level of skill and strength.
That's why Tzadikim have a "greater" Yetzer Horah. It means that if they want to get even stronger, they have to fight a stronger opponent.
And the strength and skill that you get from the spiritual exercise with the Yetzer Horah is what is gives you never-ending, infinite happiness forever in Olam Habah.
The reason we have "so many problems" today (and not only today) is because people have a choice. They can choose to get up, put in the effort and earn their muscles. Or they can sit back and have their Neshoma get beaten up. It's a lot easier, but less rewarding in the long term.
Most of us get trounced a lot. But that doesn't matter. What counts is that we get back up and fight again. And again. And again. And wheres with a physical trainer, you are never guaranteed of reaching your goals, in the fight with the Yetzer, Hashem guarantees that if we keep trying, we'll slam him down so hard that he'll never get up again.
|Me||Posted - 18 October 2000 4:01
qwert think about it...
when a person can't afford things cuz they don't have enough money, then ok at first it'll be good when they keep on recieving money from someone b/c wow look how much they can get with this money that they're getting for free but after a while they'll start feeling like hey I didn't really earn this money it's not a reward and it's not mine and i keep on taking... when they take so much they start feeling awkward that they're not giving anything and only keep on taking more and more without that feeling of accomplishment.
It's the same with the Yetzer hara. if Hashem wouldn't give us one then at first we'd love it b/c wow we don't even have to try and we always get rewarded more and more until we gwt to the pt. that we feel We didn't earn all this reward and hashem keeps giving it to us and we feel weird and awkward and un accomplished. but Hashem in place gives us a Yetzaer hara so that yes it may be harder to get reward when we finally earn it we feel proud that we've earned it and didn't just shnorr it.
|nree613||Posted - 08 November 2000 0:50
The answer you gave QWERT is coined Nehamah D'Kisufah(Embaresing bread). The question that that really answers is like this. If G-D created the world to benifit mankind why didn't he just create the world to come?
On that they answer the answer you gave qwert. The question remains that embarresment is a creation, so don't create embarresment and just create the world to come.
|MODERATOR||Posted - 08 November 2000 2:01
This question is resolved by the material in the "Basic Judaism" forum, and discussed directly in th "Death and Suffering" forum, under "Why bother living?" -- see my post of 20 July 2000 16:31, and the ensuing discussion.
In short, since Olam Habbah means connecting to Hashem such that you will enjoy the infinite pleasure that Hashem kavyochol enjoys, in order to get Olam Habbah you therefore have to be able to become connected to Hashem. Actually, to become part of Hashem, so to speak.
Now since Hashem is perfect, and by definition there is only one version of perfection (2 different things cannot be absolutely perfect in the same way) there is also only one way to become part of Hashem.
So Hashem extracted His essence, His Will, what makes Him Him, which could not be different than it is, since His essence is perfect (like He is) and perfection only has one version.
That essence is the Torah. When we fulfill the Torah we are enabling ourselves to connect to Hashem. Since the Torah works through Bechirah, there had to be bechirah. there's no other way to connect to Hashem. Even Hashem could not create such a thing. And since the Torah works with rules such as l'fum tzaarah agra, that is the path to perfection.
The Nahamah d'kisufa conept as such is an oversimplification. It's meant more as a reference than a fully explanatory answer. Unfortunately, a lot of people, even knowledgable ones, don't get past the elementary stage with this. Then, when the sophistication of their ability to question things exceeds the sophistication of their level of knowledge, they get confused.
Edited by - admindealing on 11/9/2000 5:10:02 PM
|Admonit||Posted - 13 November 2003 9:15
quoting R' Mod
"When we fulfill the Torah we are enabling ourselves to connect to Hashem. Since the Torah works through Bechirah, there had to be bechirah. there's no other way to connect to Hashem. Even Hashem could not create such a thing. "
i dont undrstand this- how does the Torah work thru bechira and there couldnt be any oother way? please explain in more words if poss.
|MODERATOR||Posted - 13 November 2003 9:30
WHatever way the Torah works, it could NOT have worked nay other way. That would be asking if Hashem could have been any different than He is now, and the answer to that of course is no.
There is onyl one version of Perfection, such that any chance would be a step down. Hashem is Perfect, and however he "is," he could not have been any different way.
Schar v'Onesh does not work the same way that let's say a contest works, where the winner gets a prize. The Torah is not some kind of game which if we win we get reward. Rather, the Torah is an expression of Hashem's essence - connecting to the Torah by doing Mitzvos is connecting to Hashem right then and there. If we were able to "feel it", we would be able to realize that we have merited Olam Habah right when w do a Mitzvah. After we die, our physical bodies are removed and the "blindfold" is off; our senses are no longer dulled by meterial existence and we are able to feel what we always had - the effect of doing Mitzvos.
Schar is more the effect of the Mitzvah, than it is the "reward" for doing it.
Therefore, the Torah could not have been different, because Hashem could not have been different. Hashem, when giving the Torah, merely articulated His essence kivyachol, and however it came out, it came out. It could not have been different.
|Admonit||Posted - 14 November 2003 3:29
got it. Thank you!
btw why does suffering cleanse a person even if they do not take note of it and become elevated thru it???? (kapara by taking a dime out insted of a quarter WHEN A PERSON DOESNT TAKE NOTE OF THE FACT THAT ITS FROM HASHEM?)
is it bec most of our neshama is out of our body, so that part of our neshama knows abt it and is elevated?
|Punims||Posted - 16 November 2003 18:37
Maybe because even if they don't know about, they did suffer for a tiny milisecond of their life. And suffering is good, it does take a bit away from the suffering up there...
Question is -- what if they DON'T suffer? What if someone enjoys looking through their pocket for the right change?
|Admonit||Posted - 08 February 2004 21:20
punims--- i dont chap y ur answer is an answer b'chlal bec i didnt understand why suffering is a cleansing agent b'chlal- like why does suffering make u better.
however BH i stumbled upon the answer in R Aryeh Kaplans handbook of jewish knowledge- suffering weakens the physical elments of ppl. if theyre weaker, the spiritual self is stronger. thats all- disconnects self from physicality.
mod- is there any inyan to mitzvos if we wouldnt have a yetzer hara? is there an intrinsic value to them, or would it be the same if Hashem had said to stand on our head every day? i.e. by moshach when no bechira, no mitzvos? ? ? ? ? whats the deal? things like tefila etc i can u/s that well keep, but shatnez, shalosh seudos, lulav etc?
|Punims||Posted - 16 February 2004 18:50
Can you explain that - about when you're weaker, your spiritual self becomes stronger?
|yideleh||Posted - 18 February 2004 2:54
punims, if I can just add in my 2 cents there...
I went thru a period of time where my physical world was getting close to zero. Everything was crumbling around me. My worst fears were being materialized one after the other. I thought I would just disappear in the end.
At the same time, my spiritual self was the strongest it ever was. There's a delicate balance between our physical and spiritual self. The more power one side has, the less the other gets. The less physical, the more room for spiritual. It's just the way it is.
|bruriaheww||Posted - 18 February 2004 3:46
I don't get it...someoen explain it...
|Admonit||Posted - 03 March 2004 18:55
when were connected to the physical elements of ourselves, we are into it. i cant be into my hair if it falls out, i cant be into my money if theres no way i will get any, i cant be into my pride if everyone treats me like dirt. etc.
so when a person has pain, he is thus less connected to the base/lower parts of him. because they are destroyed. he can no longer obsess over his ego for example, if he is insulted. even if it is in a small way, for that amount of time, he was disconnected from his physicality or bad midos. so he got more Gdly.
|Punims||Posted - 03 March 2004 18:55
It might be true for some ppl but when my physical life is down, I usually have no 'cheshek' at all to even *try* to work on my spiritual self...
|yideleh||Posted - 05 March 2004 15:24
punims, I agree that ppl sometimes feel like you wrote. I sometimes don't feel like doing anything to get up either when things are down. I guess when I realize I'm in trouble I turn to G-d and spirituality (nebach!)
But what about when things are going good. Does your ruchniyus and hakaras hatov go up then too?
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