Anything about JUDAISM
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zm Posted - 11 June 2002 22:06
If you'd like to know more about this field, I can try to help.

I am a computer programmer (a software engineer, if you want to be fancy), with a degree and a few years of experience. I received my bachelors without stepping into a secular college, in two years after high school. My husband is learning in kollel, we’re raising two children and I still work full time. Any questions?

grend123 Posted - 12 June 2002 7:06
Computer programming is an unusual field college-wise. Personally ive been programming professionally for a few years, well before i entered college - and generally if you know your stuff you can get a job even without a degree. On the other hand, this really only applies to certain types of programming jobs - including most of the work in non-computer businesses, but to work for a real software company you either need excellent references and at least five years of experience, or a college degree - you can get a programming job with a COPE style program, but the challenging jobs (ie new algorithims, not payroll systems) are closed to those without more education.
grend
yg Posted - 12 June 2002 21:18
Grend- I don't know that that is necessarily true. I did not go to a secular college and I am currently working for the 4th largest company in the world. We write and support hospital software. This is not exactly one of those 2 bit job that you are reffering to. The girl that sits next to me DID graduate from college and she is making a significant amount less than I am. I honestly believe that if H'KBH wants you to get a good job, you will, even if you don't go to college. There are many frum men and women in my company who used their experience here as a springboard for a very high-paying job in Bear Sterns, Merril Lynch and the like. I myself was offered a job as a consultant at a top New York hospital. I declined because of the seviva. If Hashem wants me to make double my salary, I will without exposing myself to the language and mindset of the outwardly-upperclass-but-deep-inside-black-souled people. You CAN succeed and get a fantastik job without a college education. Don't underestimate it. The reason COPE and CHUBB have such poor job placement these days is because we are a flooded field and there are almost no good jobs to be had.
MODERATOR Posted - 12 June 2002 22:05
I agree with yg. My daughter is also a programmer, who didnt go to college, and got her first job with a Fortune 400 company. Then, when she got married and moved, she had to find another programming job in the current market, which was murder - everyone was looking for 3-5 years experience (but not a single company asked for a degree). She did get another programming job, B"H with anothe big shot company (but not as big shotty as the first). Experience is much more important than a degree.

In fact, yg and I have a common friend who's a VP of IT at one of the biggest companies in the country, whose education consisted of a three-month proramming course. he was good and worked his way up.

It may be more difficult, but it for sure can be done. Its definitely not a reason to go to college.

In fact, I know ppl who went to college and are in a worse position than their peers who didnt. What happened was, while he was still in college, the other guys were already getting a year or two of experience, and by the time he got out, their resume was better than his. He still hasnt caught up.

Programming is definitely one field where you can totally make it without college.

grend123 Posted - 13 June 2002 20:14
I agree that you can make it in programming without college. I merely said that you will be doing business-type software, (like yg says she is doing) and not the "fun stuff" of new frontiers such as algorithmic design or graphics rendering (which looks to be the next big field in computers, judging by the setup of Intel's latest chips and the tweaks in Windows XP). The computer industry was built from the ground by college dropouts.
yg- I dont know what you mean about there being no jobs - there is a lower unemployment rate in the computer industry than in almost any other field in NY state (and presumably NJ, although I havent seen such statistics), and I myself, without a degree, have recieved numerous (more than four) job offers from reputable companys in the past year alone. But I can tell you that I know personally several managers who will not hire programmers from COPE style programs (wether jewish or not) - and although I dont have statistics, i would venture that this is not an uncommon aversion. Of course there are the rare few companies like IDT that prefer such graduates, but those are so few and far between that if COPE is only placing with them its understandable that there arent any jobs.
yg Posted - 14 June 2002 7:16
Grend- First of all, my company DOES do the 'fun stuff'. We are currently creating a new GUI HTML program that hospitals can use for front and back end systems and it is fun and very cool too. And I do know many college graduates that are hunting for a job in the programming field that just can't find- unless they are willing to settle for a pretty low-level job. Lucky for you, you had job offers. (let me know who you reject, I have a slew of people that would grab a good job right now.) Like I said- it is mazel. P.S.- most programming jobs are the boring ones, we are what make the world spin. It is the lucky few that get to actually do hands-on fun stuff.
grend123 Posted - 17 June 2002 1:04
I completely agree that most of the programming work available isn't much fun - which is why im studying to be a hardware engineer, not a programmer. As for those job offers, 3 have since been filled, and one company went bankrupt about a month ago (although I would have gotten a nice severance package if id taken that job!) Sorry.
michaelk Posted - 28 June 2002 11:15
grend: how did you learn to program?
also, how old are you?
Anonymous Bochur Posted - 30 July 2002 23:17
Moderator: How did your daughter that you mentioned, or anyone else for that matter, get a degree in programming without having gone to college? Is the degree from a college, or otherwise? I am a little confused, but if I can skip college, you can have a good portion of my Schar in Olam Habah (if I have enough to give away!).
MODERATOR Posted - 30 July 2002 23:25
She got a certification, not a degree, by going ot trade school, not college. It is not as "choshuv" as a degree, but it got her a good job, and now, the experience she is getting may be as good, career-wise, as those her age who are still in college (the course she took was 9 months). By the time they get their degrees, she will have a few years experience.
hudi Posted - 31 July 2002 1:07
i agree with the mod.
you could get a good job with certification like A+ and MCSE. there are traing places all around the country where you can take summer courses to become certified. there are even places that offer it to the frum community, for example, John hopkins has a computer training centre that caters a night course to bochurim from ner yisrael.

hudi

Abcyr Posted - 25 September 2002 7:46
Where can we find a remez to computer programming in the Torah?
MODERATOR Posted - 25 September 2002 8:04
Sigh. Well, we know that computers are the technology of the younger generation; its the only skill where you have these 15 year old hackers being hired by the government and where kids can work the machines better than their parents.

We also know that the basic structure of all programs is the "If-then" model.

So therefore it is no surprise that in Bamidbar 32:13, in the words "asher amarti etain l'zarachem" ("which I promised to your children") if you start with the first letter (alef), and count every 4 letters from there, you will see the code phrase "im az" ("if-then") embedded in the posuk.

Um, now seriously - what in the world does this question mean?

grend123 Posted - 25 September 2002 18:35
<"grend: how did you learn to program?
also, how old are you?">

I learned to program from books and by practicing... once you learn one language the others come easy, and at the moment i write each of my projects in several languages at once (at one point in my last project i was writing programs in 7 languages). Practice makes perfect - learning how to program professionally, as opposed to just absorbing the contents of a "Dummies" book, takes years of work. It pays off, though - i can earn several thousand dollars in a few days of consulting, although those kind of jobs dont come along too often. If you want to begin, i reccommend QBASIC - a useless language, but very wasy to learn important concepts with - and then continuing to visual basic, java and c++ in that order. After that, come back and ill give you some tips!

As to how old I am, I'd rather not say, but im currently studying in YU. I'm not a computer major, so that narrows it down to about 1250 people!

life?!?! Posted - 25 September 2002 19:20
huh?!? i dont get it, whats the torah trying to say abt programing??
MODERATOR Posted - 25 September 2002 19:26
Nothing. It was a joke. (Although the "remez" really does work.)
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